4 ms·

No they shouldn't. Russia has played the "we must protect the Russian minority in that region" card before to justify military action. Its' the whole reason we

by querez 4y ago

No they shouldn't. Russia has played the "we must protect the Russian minority in that region" card before to justify military action. Its' the whole reason we have a war in Ukraine. Estonia must make ensure that no such pretense can exist in their country. Denying citizenship to people who don't denounce their Russian nationality and don't fully accept "becoming Estonian" is the right thing to do, IMO.

lebed2045 4y ago
It’s just nonsense. If the agresor wants to invade the country- they do that regardless. Germany-Poland the obvious example. If anything, the discrimination of local russian minority makes look it extremely injusted and oppressive.
- varjag 4y ago
  If you legalize a sizeable population loyal to another country, they can be manipulated to derail political processes in the host country via normal democratic procedures. Things like NATO or EU ascension become challenging. Estonia was right to nip this in the bud.
  - actionfromafar 4y ago
    Sure, but what Estonian carrots can be offered today to make the russian speakers feel welcome and appreciated? I'm a strong believer in two pronged approaches to avoid marginalization. Almost everywhere it occurs, there's hell to pay later, for everyone involved. There are kids born every year who had no say in the matter.
justinclift 4y ago
> Its' the whole reason we have a war in Ukraine. No. It's just the excuse that's trotted out. If that excuse wasn't available, a difference excuse/fig-leaf would have been given or created. Trying to get rid of all potential excuses is unlikely to work, they'll just get creative and manufacture something else instead.
joshuaissac 4y ago
About a third of the ethnic Russians in Estonia do not have Russian nationality, so they are effectively stateless.
- varjag 4y ago
  The alien passport gives you mobility across Schengen area and free access to Russia (without having to live in Russia). For its owners it's a decent value.
  - joshuaissac 4y ago
    > mobility across Schengen area and free access to Russia Only to visit for up to 90 days, not to actually reside in either place. So it would be more like a stateless European getting an ESTA, which is hardly a replacement for actual citizenship in their home country. > For its owners it's a decent value An actual Estonian passport lets its owners work in the EU and gives them mobility across 181 countries; a Russian passport gives them access to 119. Estonian non-citizens can visit 46. Not that visa-free access to another country is the point of citizenship.
    - varjag 4y ago
      > Only to visit for up to 90 days, not to actually reside in either place. Visa free does not generally mean residence permit included. Still a pretty reasonable deal for someone who is not a citizen in Schengen. > a Russian passport gives them access to 119 A Russian passport requires visa application to any of Schengen states. The queues for filing I believe are into months now. > Not that visa-free access to another country is the point of citizenship. Indeed, and people who can't be arsed to naturalize clearly don't see it either.
      - joshuaissac 4y ago
        > A Russian passport requires visa application to any of Schengen states. The queues for filing I believe are into months now. I do not think that this will really be a motivating factor. Schengen visa waiting times would be the least of a stateless person's concerns. > Indeed, and people who can't be arsed to naturalize clearly don't see it either. I am not sure if you are suggesting that non-citizens are refusing to naturalise because they would lose visa-free access to Russia and the Schengen area. Historically, the most commonly-cited barriers to Estonian naturalisation have been the difficulty of the citizenship test and of learning the language, according to the Estonian ministry of culture. The context of the thread was someone suggesting that naturalisation be made easier.

by querez 4y ago

lebed2045 4y ago

It’s just nonsense. If the agresor wants to invade the country- they do that regardless. Germany-Poland the obvious example. If anything, the discrimination of local russian minority makes look it extremely injusted and oppressive.

varjag 4y ago
If you legalize a sizeable population loyal to another country, they can be manipulated to derail political processes in the host country via normal democratic procedures. Things like NATO or EU ascension become challenging. Estonia was right to nip this in the bud.
- actionfromafar 4y ago
  Sure, but what Estonian carrots can be offered today to make the russian speakers feel welcome and appreciated? I'm a strong believer in two pronged approaches to avoid marginalization. Almost everywhere it occurs, there's hell to pay later, for everyone involved. There are kids born every year who had no say in the matter.

justinclift 4y ago

> Its' the whole reason we have a war in Ukraine. No. It's just the excuse that's trotted out. If that excuse wasn't available, a difference excuse/fig-leaf would have been given or created. Trying to get rid of all potential excuses is unlikely to work, they'll just get creative and manufacture something else instead.

joshuaissac 4y ago

About a third of the ethnic Russians in Estonia do not have Russian nationality, so they are effectively stateless.

varjag 4y ago
The alien passport gives you mobility across Schengen area and free access to Russia (without having to live in Russia). For its owners it's a decent value.
- joshuaissac 4y ago
  > mobility across Schengen area and free access to Russia Only to visit for up to 90 days, not to actually reside in either place. So it would be more like a stateless European getting an ESTA, which is hardly a replacement for actual citizenship in their home country. > For its owners it's a decent value An actual Estonian passport lets its owners work in the EU and gives them mobility across 181 countries; a Russian passport gives them access to 119. Estonian non-citizens can visit 46. Not that visa-free access to another country is the point of citizenship.
  - varjag 4y ago
    > Only to visit for up to 90 days, not to actually reside in either place. Visa free does not generally mean residence permit included. Still a pretty reasonable deal for someone who is not a citizen in Schengen. > a Russian passport gives them access to 119 A Russian passport requires visa application to any of Schengen states. The queues for filing I believe are into months now. > Not that visa-free access to another country is the point of citizenship. Indeed, and people who can't be arsed to naturalize clearly don't see it either.
    - joshuaissac 4y ago
      > A Russian passport requires visa application to any of Schengen states. The queues for filing I believe are into months now. I do not think that this will really be a motivating factor. Schengen visa waiting times would be the least of a stateless person's concerns. > Indeed, and people who can't be arsed to naturalize clearly don't see it either. I am not sure if you are suggesting that non-citizens are refusing to naturalise because they would lose visa-free access to Russia and the Schengen area. Historically, the most commonly-cited barriers to Estonian naturalisation have been the difficulty of the citizenship test and of learning the language, according to the Estonian ministry of culture. The context of the thread was someone suggesting that naturalisation be made easier.