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Russian-speaking*. An interesting 2014 read on their inclusion re: national defence matters: https://icds.ee/wp-content/uploads/2014/Juhan_Kivirahk_-_Integrati

by m2fkxy 4y ago

Russian-speaking*. An interesting 2014 read on their inclusion re: national defence matters: https://icds.ee/wp-content/uploads/2014/Juhan_Kivirahk_-_Integrating_Estonias_Russian-Speaking_Population.pdf https://icds.ee/wp-content/uploads/2014/Juhan_Kivirahk_-_Int...

engineer_22 4y ago
Thanks for that!
luckylion 4y ago
They use the term ethnic Russian-speaking minorities, but from those minorities, it's ~89% Russians, ~8% Ukrainians and ~3% Belarusians. Not sure how much Pro-Russia sentiment there is among Ukrainians in Estonia but I'd be surprised if it's significant, so it's really "Russians" in 2023, even if it was broadly "Russian-speaking" in 2014.
- O__________O 4y ago
  At this point even having a Russian speaking population is potentially a liability regardless if they’re pro-Russian or not, since Russia will just spin whatever pro-Estonian or anti-Russian sentiment they say to be propaganda and Russia will just say they obviously need to be liberated so they’re able to express their support for Russia. While only roughly 300,000 to 450,000 of 1.3 million of Estonians have ethnic ties to Russia, 73% are near Estonia’s border with Russia: https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/et-people-russians.htm https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/et-peop... This YouTube provides an animated history of Estonian borders: https://youtube.com/watch?v=HBA0xDHZjko https://youtube.com/watch?v=HBA0xDHZjko
  - 01ce8c91872dd6d 4y ago
    that sure sounds like a question in dire need of a solution!
    - O__________O 4y ago
      Only if you consider a 100 year old border a dire situation. Otherwise it would make way more sense economically for Russia to offer to resettle anyone interested no longer being Estonian instead of invading yet another sovereign country.
      - throw-ru-938 4y ago
        The present border is more like 80 year old, it was adjusted by the USSR (favouring Russia) after the Baltics were annexed in 1940. However, it generally follows the pre-1917 borders of the Governorates of Estland and Livonia.
        O__________O 4y ago
        Map showing the annex your referencing: https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=352476 https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=352476 I was unable to find a map overlaying pre-1917 borders and current borders.
  - randomname93857 4y ago
    For context: in USSR a person could not choose to move to live in another area, city or town. that was VERY difficult to do (was possible by marriage). Baltic countries and any close to border areas were especially controlled. But military, KGB and Communist party could appoint people to live in Baltic countries. those were "special" people - that proved their allegiance I can say. That is why they are a challenge to Estonia and other Baltic countries.
    - O__________O 4y ago
      My understanding is the Estonian-Russian border as it is currently has been in place over 100 years, is this inaccurate?
      - twixfel 4y ago
        Yes, but most Russians living in Estonia are post-1945 colonists or descendants of post-1945 colonists. I had imagined that the bulk of the population have a long and storied history in Estonia, but they don't. For example, no ethnic Estonians were allowed to return to Narva after the war, and was instead settled overwhelming mostly by Russian colonists. Narva is the third biggest city in Estonia, and 88% Russian. Pre-colonisation it was majority Estonian. So the border is old but the ethnic borders are very new and based on very recent Russian colonisation.
        O__________O 4y ago
        Specific to Narva, Wikipedia has a breakdown of its historical affiliation and invasion, which date back 1000s of years: https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Narva https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Narva Of note, “The status of Narva was resolved in a July 1917 referendum, when the district population, at that time roughly equally divided between ethnic Russians and Estonians, voted to attach itself to the newly autonomous and soon to be independent republic of Estonia.”
    - sam_lowry_ 4y ago
      This is not true. USSR existed for some 70 years and there were different times. One could move quite freely by 1970-ish. Except that you could not have permanent residence in Moscow and Leningrad.
- skeletal88 4y ago
  For context: there were about 2-3% russians of the total population before WWII. Russia imported hundreds of thousands of them, with the explicit goal of replacing us local estonians. Unfortunately we now have this.. large minority and a part of it yearns for the time when they, the russians were the master race in the empire, everything could be done in their language and all others were below them.

by m2fkxy 4y ago

engineer_22 4y ago

Thanks for that!

luckylion 4y ago

They use the term ethnic Russian-speaking minorities, but from those minorities, it's ~89% Russians, ~8% Ukrainians and ~3% Belarusians. Not sure how much Pro-Russia sentiment there is among Ukrainians in Estonia but I'd be surprised if it's significant, so it's really "Russians" in 2023, even if it was broadly "Russian-speaking" in 2014.

O__________O 4y ago
At this point even having a Russian speaking population is potentially a liability regardless if they’re pro-Russian or not, since Russia will just spin whatever pro-Estonian or anti-Russian sentiment they say to be propaganda and Russia will just say they obviously need to be liberated so they’re able to express their support for Russia. While only roughly 300,000 to 450,000 of 1.3 million of Estonians have ethnic ties to Russia, 73% are near Estonia’s border with Russia: https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/et-people-russians.htm https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/et-peop... This YouTube provides an animated history of Estonian borders: https://youtube.com/watch?v=HBA0xDHZjko https://youtube.com/watch?v=HBA0xDHZjko
- 01ce8c91872dd6d 4y ago
  that sure sounds like a question in dire need of a solution!
  - O__________O 4y ago
    Only if you consider a 100 year old border a dire situation. Otherwise it would make way more sense economically for Russia to offer to resettle anyone interested no longer being Estonian instead of invading yet another sovereign country.
    - throw-ru-938 4y ago
      The present border is more like 80 year old, it was adjusted by the USSR (favouring Russia) after the Baltics were annexed in 1940. However, it generally follows the pre-1917 borders of the Governorates of Estland and Livonia.
      - O__________O 4y ago
        Map showing the annex your referencing: https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=352476 https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=352476 I was unable to find a map overlaying pre-1917 borders and current borders.
- randomname93857 4y ago
  For context: in USSR a person could not choose to move to live in another area, city or town. that was VERY difficult to do (was possible by marriage). Baltic countries and any close to border areas were especially controlled. But military, KGB and Communist party could appoint people to live in Baltic countries. those were "special" people - that proved their allegiance I can say. That is why they are a challenge to Estonia and other Baltic countries.
  - O__________O 4y ago
    My understanding is the Estonian-Russian border as it is currently has been in place over 100 years, is this inaccurate?
    - twixfel 4y ago
      Yes, but most Russians living in Estonia are post-1945 colonists or descendants of post-1945 colonists. I had imagined that the bulk of the population have a long and storied history in Estonia, but they don't. For example, no ethnic Estonians were allowed to return to Narva after the war, and was instead settled overwhelming mostly by Russian colonists. Narva is the third biggest city in Estonia, and 88% Russian. Pre-colonisation it was majority Estonian. So the border is old but the ethnic borders are very new and based on very recent Russian colonisation.
      - O__________O 4y ago
        Specific to Narva, Wikipedia has a breakdown of its historical affiliation and invasion, which date back 1000s of years: https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Narva https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Narva Of note, “The status of Narva was resolved in a July 1917 referendum, when the district population, at that time roughly equally divided between ethnic Russians and Estonians, voted to attach itself to the newly autonomous and soon to be independent republic of Estonia.”
  - sam_lowry_ 4y ago
    This is not true. USSR existed for some 70 years and there were different times. One could move quite freely by 1970-ish. Except that you could not have permanent residence in Moscow and Leningrad.
skeletal88 4y ago
For context: there were about 2-3% russians of the total population before WWII. Russia imported hundreds of thousands of them, with the explicit goal of replacing us local estonians. Unfortunately we now have this.. large minority and a part of it yearns for the time when they, the russians were the master race in the empire, everything could be done in their language and all others were below them.