4 ms·

That seems in line with what happens though. There's less than a minute, normally around 40 seconds between movements, a take off and landing. To casual observe

That seems in line with what happens though. There's less than a minute, normally around 40 seconds between movements, a take off and landing. To casual observer it seems close of course but it appears the delay from the southwest crew was the issue. Then it's complicated by the lack of visibility from the tower because the controller couldn't detect the delay and issue appropriate commands.

bagels 4y ago
Nearly billion dollar jets and they can't slap a gps on them to see that they're sitting on the runway.
- bigiain 4y ago
  I see aircraft (and even airport ground vehicles) on the runway all the time on my ADS-B setup. They 100% have them, just nobody was looking at them at the right time.
  - kqr 4y ago
    I find that in stressful and risky situations people stop trusting the data in front of them. They want to believe things are alright and will keep looking for new pieces of information to confirm that, while downplaying the importance of contradictory information.
    - moring 4y ago
      Do you know how true this is for (relatively) reliable systems such as those found in aviation? I know that in everyday life, what you say is absolutely true -- I definitely stop trusting electronic systems in stressful situations -- but then I also know how they feed me misleading as well as blatantly false data all the time, so I'd argue that not trusting them is not irrational per se.
      - kqr 4y ago
        The way I understand it, it's not so much about the reliability of the electronics, but rather of human cognition. A lot of people have trouble believing that they (or other people in their custody) are on a trajectory to a fatal accident, so they instinctively reject evidence of this (not using their full brain due to stress response) and continue to search for evidence confirming that everything is alright.
- paranoidrobot 4y ago
  The issue was not "Where were the aircraft". The controller knew where they were at all times. (And they do have GPS, They also have ADSB, and ground based position detection, and, and, and..)
  - bagels 4y ago
    Time 1:54, Tower: “Southwest 708, confirm on the roll?” They don't know if Southwest was moving?
    - hef19898 4y ago
      ATC is run by humans, planes are piloted by humans. The whole environment is highly controlled and regulated. And highly complex, and as this incident shows, one mistake in the whole chain, even a little one, can literally kill hundreds of people. This is nothing one can solve by throwing even more sensors and technology in, and have that run by ChatGPT or something. Highly trained people with the right amount and kind of technology are the solution. Edit: Sensors and stuff tell you were aircraft is, not what the human pilots are going to do when within the aloted period of time they have to do whatever they are cleared to do. Hence, you do the logical thing and ask them.
      - account42 4y ago
        That humans are in charge of ATC and flying the planes doesn't mean that there can't be automation to assist them and cover mistakes. Poor visibility should not ever be a factor when we can have sensors that show exactly where the plane is on the ground. And yes we are definitely at a point where machine learning can predict the likely actions based on the human communication and warn if the predicted path could lead to a collision. The point is to have multiple safty systems (inclduing the human operators) so that one mistake doesn't kill hundreds of people because there are secondary systems to catch it.
    - paranoidrobot 4y ago
      The aircraft were at all relevant times broadcasting their position using ADSB. The controller had at least one screen displaying their positionx probably several. It may fuse multiple data sources. They may also have been able to see the Southwest aircraft, although maybe not clearly or only as lights. Despite this it can be difficult to judge the speed of an object at long distances under less than ideal circumstances and at night without a long observation period. So yeah they knew where they were but not the acceleration. It's also worth pointing out that the controller may have been in sudden stress due to realising the aircraft were too close, and so may have made a call that they already knew the answer to.

bagels 4y ago

Nearly billion dollar jets and they can't slap a gps on them to see that they're sitting on the runway.

bigiain 4y ago
I see aircraft (and even airport ground vehicles) on the runway all the time on my ADS-B setup. They 100% have them, just nobody was looking at them at the right time.
- kqr 4y ago
  I find that in stressful and risky situations people stop trusting the data in front of them. They want to believe things are alright and will keep looking for new pieces of information to confirm that, while downplaying the importance of contradictory information.
  - moring 4y ago
    Do you know how true this is for (relatively) reliable systems such as those found in aviation? I know that in everyday life, what you say is absolutely true -- I definitely stop trusting electronic systems in stressful situations -- but then I also know how they feed me misleading as well as blatantly false data all the time, so I'd argue that not trusting them is not irrational per se.
    - kqr 4y ago
      The way I understand it, it's not so much about the reliability of the electronics, but rather of human cognition. A lot of people have trouble believing that they (or other people in their custody) are on a trajectory to a fatal accident, so they instinctively reject evidence of this (not using their full brain due to stress response) and continue to search for evidence confirming that everything is alright.
paranoidrobot 4y ago
The issue was not "Where were the aircraft". The controller knew where they were at all times. (And they do have GPS, They also have ADSB, and ground based position detection, and, and, and..)
- bagels 4y ago
  Time 1:54, Tower: “Southwest 708, confirm on the roll?” They don't know if Southwest was moving?
  - hef19898 4y ago
    ATC is run by humans, planes are piloted by humans. The whole environment is highly controlled and regulated. And highly complex, and as this incident shows, one mistake in the whole chain, even a little one, can literally kill hundreds of people. This is nothing one can solve by throwing even more sensors and technology in, and have that run by ChatGPT or something. Highly trained people with the right amount and kind of technology are the solution. Edit: Sensors and stuff tell you were aircraft is, not what the human pilots are going to do when within the aloted period of time they have to do whatever they are cleared to do. Hence, you do the logical thing and ask them.
    - account42 4y ago
      That humans are in charge of ATC and flying the planes doesn't mean that there can't be automation to assist them and cover mistakes. Poor visibility should not ever be a factor when we can have sensors that show exactly where the plane is on the ground. And yes we are definitely at a point where machine learning can predict the likely actions based on the human communication and warn if the predicted path could lead to a collision. The point is to have multiple safty systems (inclduing the human operators) so that one mistake doesn't kill hundreds of people because there are secondary systems to catch it.
  - paranoidrobot 4y ago
    The aircraft were at all relevant times broadcasting their position using ADSB. The controller had at least one screen displaying their positionx probably several. It may fuse multiple data sources. They may also have been able to see the Southwest aircraft, although maybe not clearly or only as lights. Despite this it can be difficult to judge the speed of an object at long distances under less than ideal circumstances and at night without a long observation period. So yeah they knew where they were but not the acceleration. It's also worth pointing out that the controller may have been in sudden stress due to realising the aircraft were too close, and so may have made a call that they already knew the answer to.