4 ms·

Management track is usually the only way to be in the room where decisions get made. Sure, the top engineers will be consulted and kept in the loop, but 99% of

Management track is usually the only way to be in the room where decisions get made. Sure, the top engineers will be consulted and kept in the loop, but 99% of the strategy discussions and planning happens without them. So for people with an innate need to join in the steering of the ship, there’s only one career path.

antipaul 4y ago
Is it possible to do both? I hear senior VPs like Craig Federighi, Jeff Dean, and others, still write code (maybe 1 day a week but still), but also call the big shots
- khazhoux 4y ago
  I don't know about Jeff, but Craig runs an org with tens of thousands of engineers. If he were writing code, it'd be a waste of time. (and Craig doesn't waste his time)
  - sidibe 4y ago
    Jeff Dean also eventually managed a huge org (Sanjay Ghemawat managed to avoid this) It's not a waste of time if it makes them more effective at making decisions, gives them ideas, or keeps them abreast of what is actually going on.
    - khazhoux 4y ago
      Ideas, staying sharp, keeping up with swift and pytorch etc… sure, absolutely useful to code on weekends or a bit here and there. What I meant what that there’s literal zero way someone can be an SVP and still perform any actual IC work.
- vdchuyen 4y ago
  [dead]
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
diebeforei485 4y ago
Top engineers should be in the room.
- khazhoux 4y ago
  Yes, they really should.
grogenaut 4y ago
My org of 500+ has 4 groups in it. Our annual plan had 16 major priorities, 4 of them came from me (a PE, most sr eng) directly or initiatives I pulled forward. I was in the deep meetings for my direct group. I had many discussions for the 2 ideas in other groups (one was easy actually). I'm not sure how that would rate as "excluded". I gave comment on all of the org plans and priorities in the groups (many of them have a lot of priorities I'm not spun up on yet as they're well covered or out of my wheel house). I sat in the final reviews. I'm in the promo / rating meetings. Only thing I'm really not in is the budget meetings and ceremony goal reporting meetings except when needed. That seems like a plus.
- vharish 4y ago
  This is your experience and it doesn't prove anything. I mean, the above comment clearly said "usually" and most likely that's the case. At least, from what I saw. There may be one engineer for 4-5 managers in the group.
trashtester 4y ago
> So for people with an innate need to join in the steering of the ship, there’s only one career path. Not really. Some managers are perfectly willing to include IC's in this if they don't want to be/are not suitable as people-managers. There are ways to formalize this, like creating roles for tech-leads, technical project management, enterprise architects (and a lot of others, in non-tech industries). For managers who have their strongest talents in the social/organizational domain, this can be a win-win, if their ego allows it. In some cases, nearly all the technical and strategic work can be done by the IC, while the manager can focus on ensuring funding and support for these strategies within the organization, as well resource management and HR related work. Of course, for every IC that has the talents and interests that make them suitable for such influence, there may be 3-4 that want that power, but do not have the abilities, initiative, flexibility or willingness to put enough effort into it to make it worthwhile for the manager. And from the other perspective. If you're such an employee, it may be that you need to look around a bit to find a team lead by this kind of manager. It may well be that only 10-20% will be into this kind of cooperation with a subordinate. But if you do find the right manager to support in this way, and actually do contribute to his/her getting promoted more quickly, you may have a powerful ally among the higher-ups (or even in some cases be pulled along, and given some direct-report role directly under him/her).
hinkley 4y ago
This is the problem I’ve been wrestling with. I’m never going to get the control I desire, unless I give up on benefiting from that control. I can’t advocate properly for myself as an IC, and even as a lead or staff engineer I’m still likely to be coaching someone who goes to the meeting instead of going myself and having much gravitas. Only at very small companies do I get to cross these streams.

antipaul 4y ago

Is it possible to do both? I hear senior VPs like Craig Federighi, Jeff Dean, and others, still write code (maybe 1 day a week but still), but also call the big shots

khazhoux 4y ago
I don't know about Jeff, but Craig runs an org with tens of thousands of engineers. If he were writing code, it'd be a waste of time. (and Craig doesn't waste his time)
- sidibe 4y ago
  Jeff Dean also eventually managed a huge org (Sanjay Ghemawat managed to avoid this) It's not a waste of time if it makes them more effective at making decisions, gives them ideas, or keeps them abreast of what is actually going on.
  - khazhoux 4y ago
    Ideas, staying sharp, keeping up with swift and pytorch etc… sure, absolutely useful to code on weekends or a bit here and there. What I meant what that there’s literal zero way someone can be an SVP and still perform any actual IC work.
vdchuyen 4y ago
[dead]
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

diebeforei485 4y ago

Top engineers should be in the room.

khazhoux 4y ago
Yes, they really should.

grogenaut 4y ago

My org of 500+ has 4 groups in it. Our annual plan had 16 major priorities, 4 of them came from me (a PE, most sr eng) directly or initiatives I pulled forward. I was in the deep meetings for my direct group. I had many discussions for the 2 ideas in other groups (one was easy actually). I'm not sure how that would rate as "excluded". I gave comment on all of the org plans and priorities in the groups (many of them have a lot of priorities I'm not spun up on yet as they're well covered or out of my wheel house). I sat in the final reviews. I'm in the promo / rating meetings. Only thing I'm really not in is the budget meetings and ceremony goal reporting meetings except when needed. That seems like a plus.

vharish 4y ago
This is your experience and it doesn't prove anything. I mean, the above comment clearly said "usually" and most likely that's the case. At least, from what I saw. There may be one engineer for 4-5 managers in the group.

trashtester 4y ago

> So for people with an innate need to join in the steering of the ship, there’s only one career path. Not really. Some managers are perfectly willing to include IC's in this if they don't want to be/are not suitable as people-managers. There are ways to formalize this, like creating roles for tech-leads, technical project management, enterprise architects (and a lot of others, in non-tech industries). For managers who have their strongest talents in the social/organizational domain, this can be a win-win, if their ego allows it. In some cases, nearly all the technical and strategic work can be done by the IC, while the manager can focus on ensuring funding and support for these strategies within the organization, as well resource management and HR related work. Of course, for every IC that has the talents and interests that make them suitable for such influence, there may be 3-4 that want that power, but do not have the abilities, initiative, flexibility or willingness to put enough effort into it to make it worthwhile for the manager. And from the other perspective. If you're such an employee, it may be that you need to look around a bit to find a team lead by this kind of manager. It may well be that only 10-20% will be into this kind of cooperation with a subordinate. But if you do find the right manager to support in this way, and actually do contribute to his/her getting promoted more quickly, you may have a powerful ally among the higher-ups (or even in some cases be pulled along, and given some direct-report role directly under him/her).

hinkley 4y ago

This is the problem I’ve been wrestling with. I’m never going to get the control I desire, unless I give up on benefiting from that control. I can’t advocate properly for myself as an IC, and even as a lead or staff engineer I’m still likely to be coaching someone who goes to the meeting instead of going myself and having much gravitas. Only at very small companies do I get to cross these streams.