5 ms·

I wish xmpp would be as wide spread as matrix. It is so much more lightweight (prosody vs synapse) and doesn't make requests to anything else than the people i

I wish xmpp would be as wide spread as matrix. It is so much more lightweight (prosody vs synapse) and doesn't make requests to anything else than the people i chat with.

pantalaimon 4y ago
Yea I'm always depressed by how long it takes the Element client to refresh (update the history of) a medium number of subscribed channels. It's just text messages, why does it take so long?
- kxldodo 4y ago
  Because Matrix is designed as a distributed database instead of as a message passing service so Synapse has to catch up before you can do anything.. awful..
- robert_foss 4y ago
  Slowness of all kinds have the major goal for Matrix to fix in the last few months, they recently presented very impressive improvements at FOSDEM. https://video.fosdem.org/2023/Janson/matrix20.mp4 https://video.fosdem.org/2023/Janson/matrix20.mp4
- jonas-w 4y ago
  Same, it feels so sluggish and slow compared to xmpp clients, even in small private chats, public rooms on matrix are on another level of unusable. Also that element is the only client that supports all features, would love to switch something more lightweight but most of them have some features missing (that i would miss) or even e2ee missing. Kind of funny that your name matches an e2ee matrix proxy. https://github.com/matrix-org/pantalaimon https://github.com/matrix-org/pantalaimon
- Arathorn 4y ago
  I've tried to explain this in reasonable detail (and how it's being fixed) at https://youtu.be/eUPJ9zFV5IE?t=567 https://youtu.be/eUPJ9zFV5IE?t=567
- rakoo 4y ago
  The architectures are not the same. In XMPP, the server is the source of truth. It receives all stuff from the outside and arranges it in its database. You ask it "what's the status" and it can give you the snapshot you desire. Think favorite-search-engine that scrapes everything in the background and gives you instant answer to your queries. In Matrix, it's a stream of events. So you technically have to fetch all events and then reconstruct the current state locally. Think scraping the web manually before searching locally. There are, of course, ways to make it faster, but ultimately the fundamental difference means it will always be an upstream battle to make it as efficient, and the risk will always be to depend more on the server
yaky 4y ago
Agreed. After trying out Matrix, SimpleX Chat, and XMPP for everyday use with my spouse, XMPP has been the most reliable and has instant message delivery.
pkulak 4y ago
Wait, how is that different from Matrix? My Matrix server only syncs with rooms that I've joined, which is the people I'm chatting with. It's not like a Matrix server just starts syncing random rooms you're not in. I assume that an XMPP server has to accept events on your behalf when you're offline, right?
- jonas-w 4y ago
  It also makes requests to the keyserver at matrix.org. Integrations make requests to vector.im. Also there are analytics gathered (which are disabled by default) that get suggested to activate in the server documentation e.g. some default config snippet. They all can be disabled/are disabled by default, but the fact that such centralized services exist in a "decentralized" protocol and get suggested to you is outrageous. And the network traffic while idle is abnormal. Also if you disable the default keyserver, your server makes even more requests than before. Maybe i'm exaggarating or misunderstanding something but with prosody i still had the feeling that i'm under control, that i know what happens and what connects to where and it didn't consume as much ram/cpu.
Zash 4y ago
Be the change you wish to see in the world ;)

I wish xmpp would be as wide spread as matrix. It is so much more lightweight (prosody vs synapse) and doesn't make requests to anything else than the people i chat with.

pantalaimon 4y ago

Yea I'm always depressed by how long it takes the Element client to refresh (update the history of) a medium number of subscribed channels. It's just text messages, why does it take so long?

kxldodo 4y ago
Because Matrix is designed as a distributed database instead of as a message passing service so Synapse has to catch up before you can do anything.. awful..
robert_foss 4y ago
Slowness of all kinds have the major goal for Matrix to fix in the last few months, they recently presented very impressive improvements at FOSDEM. https://video.fosdem.org/2023/Janson/matrix20.mp4 https://video.fosdem.org/2023/Janson/matrix20.mp4
jonas-w 4y ago
Same, it feels so sluggish and slow compared to xmpp clients, even in small private chats, public rooms on matrix are on another level of unusable. Also that element is the only client that supports all features, would love to switch something more lightweight but most of them have some features missing (that i would miss) or even e2ee missing. Kind of funny that your name matches an e2ee matrix proxy. https://github.com/matrix-org/pantalaimon https://github.com/matrix-org/pantalaimon
Arathorn 4y ago
I've tried to explain this in reasonable detail (and how it's being fixed) at https://youtu.be/eUPJ9zFV5IE?t=567 https://youtu.be/eUPJ9zFV5IE?t=567
rakoo 4y ago
The architectures are not the same. In XMPP, the server is the source of truth. It receives all stuff from the outside and arranges it in its database. You ask it "what's the status" and it can give you the snapshot you desire. Think favorite-search-engine that scrapes everything in the background and gives you instant answer to your queries. In Matrix, it's a stream of events. So you technically have to fetch all events and then reconstruct the current state locally. Think scraping the web manually before searching locally. There are, of course, ways to make it faster, but ultimately the fundamental difference means it will always be an upstream battle to make it as efficient, and the risk will always be to depend more on the server

yaky 4y ago

Agreed. After trying out Matrix, SimpleX Chat, and XMPP for everyday use with my spouse, XMPP has been the most reliable and has instant message delivery.

pkulak 4y ago

Wait, how is that different from Matrix? My Matrix server only syncs with rooms that I've joined, which is the people I'm chatting with. It's not like a Matrix server just starts syncing random rooms you're not in. I assume that an XMPP server has to accept events on your behalf when you're offline, right?

jonas-w 4y ago
It also makes requests to the keyserver at matrix.org. Integrations make requests to vector.im. Also there are analytics gathered (which are disabled by default) that get suggested to activate in the server documentation e.g. some default config snippet. They all can be disabled/are disabled by default, but the fact that such centralized services exist in a "decentralized" protocol and get suggested to you is outrageous. And the network traffic while idle is abnormal. Also if you disable the default keyserver, your server makes even more requests than before. Maybe i'm exaggarating or misunderstanding something but with prosody i still had the feeling that i'm under control, that i know what happens and what connects to where and it didn't consume as much ram/cpu.

Zash 4y ago

Be the change you wish to see in the world ;)