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> $10.4 million to address roadway departure crashes along approximately 50 miles of roadway through shoulder widening, rumble strips and other low-cost treatme

> $10.4 million to address roadway departure crashes along approximately 50 miles of roadway through shoulder widening, rumble strips and other low-cost treatments. They including a road widening as 'street safety'. Very generous interpretation of the term.

karaterobot 4y ago
Sounds like they're talking about highways, not city streets, as I assume you are.
giantg2 4y ago
How so? Your quote is talking about shoulders, not additional lanes.
- mjmahone17 4y ago
  Adding more shoulder space induces higher speeds, unless you also add obstructions in the widened shoulder. If it feels like your car is not squeezed, the natural inclination is to drive faster. You need to resist that inclination to stay within the speed limit. Basically, increasing the perceived width of the lane you’re in increases speed, and speed of crash is one of the core determinants of crash fatality.
  - hammock 4y ago
    The stated goal of the improvement is not to reduce speeds, but to reduce roadway departures. I would wager wider shoulders can do that even in the face of marginally higher speeds. And your assumption that higher speeds are unsafe is unfounded- unless you want to eliminate cars altogether (“there is no safe sex/speed”), a given roadway has a generally safe speed and typically this would be calculated and considered in the widening of the shoulders
    - ultrarunner 4y ago
      I've alluded to this before on Hacker News, but the supposedly residential road that I live on is wide enough to fit approximately 7 full-size Hummer H1s side by side. The posted speed limit is 30 mph, and just riding with my elderly father-in-law today I noticed he was going 45 mph and being tailgated. I have personally lost a (thankfully parked and unoccupied) car to a collision, which wound up 100 ft down the road from where we left it. Many garbage cans have also fallen victim over the years. Calculations and considerations are all well and good, but when the rubber hits the road, wide straight roads will lead people to reason that it's fine to drive fast. I'd much, much rather have people think it's a pain to take my road because it's too skinny than to have 50-60 mph traffic accidentally kill my son or my neighbors when they choose to go outside.
      - hammock 4y ago
        It sounds like your specimen road is out of code/guidelines. If you want to do something about it you can lobby for a traffic study
        ultrarunner 4y ago
        They're all like that here… Phoenix is used as a case study in urban planning failure. The point isn't that it can or cannot be fixed (it's been decades; I'm not holding my breath), the point is that wider roads do not lead directly to safer outcomes-- probably by the same mechanism that better safety equipment in sports do not make for better injury outcomes.
  - giantg2 4y ago
    "and speed of crash is one of the core determinants of crash fatality." I mean, you have to strike an object. Adding obstacles on the shoulder seems like it would increase that likelihood. It would also prevent the option to avoid oncoming traffic, or a sudden braking vehicle in front. I have seen both of those happen multiple times.
- Rebelgecko 4y ago
  The grants include $60m to "upgrade" I-44 and I-75 from 4 to 6 lanes for a short stretch

karaterobot 4y ago

Sounds like they're talking about highways, not city streets, as I assume you are.

giantg2 4y ago

How so? Your quote is talking about shoulders, not additional lanes.

mjmahone17 4y ago
Adding more shoulder space induces higher speeds, unless you also add obstructions in the widened shoulder. If it feels like your car is not squeezed, the natural inclination is to drive faster. You need to resist that inclination to stay within the speed limit. Basically, increasing the perceived width of the lane you’re in increases speed, and speed of crash is one of the core determinants of crash fatality.
- hammock 4y ago
  The stated goal of the improvement is not to reduce speeds, but to reduce roadway departures. I would wager wider shoulders can do that even in the face of marginally higher speeds. And your assumption that higher speeds are unsafe is unfounded- unless you want to eliminate cars altogether (“there is no safe sex/speed”), a given roadway has a generally safe speed and typically this would be calculated and considered in the widening of the shoulders
  - ultrarunner 4y ago
    I've alluded to this before on Hacker News, but the supposedly residential road that I live on is wide enough to fit approximately 7 full-size Hummer H1s side by side. The posted speed limit is 30 mph, and just riding with my elderly father-in-law today I noticed he was going 45 mph and being tailgated. I have personally lost a (thankfully parked and unoccupied) car to a collision, which wound up 100 ft down the road from where we left it. Many garbage cans have also fallen victim over the years. Calculations and considerations are all well and good, but when the rubber hits the road, wide straight roads will lead people to reason that it's fine to drive fast. I'd much, much rather have people think it's a pain to take my road because it's too skinny than to have 50-60 mph traffic accidentally kill my son or my neighbors when they choose to go outside.
    - hammock 4y ago
      It sounds like your specimen road is out of code/guidelines. If you want to do something about it you can lobby for a traffic study
      - ultrarunner 4y ago
        They're all like that here… Phoenix is used as a case study in urban planning failure. The point isn't that it can or cannot be fixed (it's been decades; I'm not holding my breath), the point is that wider roads do not lead directly to safer outcomes-- probably by the same mechanism that better safety equipment in sports do not make for better injury outcomes.
- giantg2 4y ago
  "and speed of crash is one of the core determinants of crash fatality." I mean, you have to strike an object. Adding obstacles on the shoulder seems like it would increase that likelihood. It would also prevent the option to avoid oncoming traffic, or a sudden braking vehicle in front. I have seen both of those happen multiple times.
Rebelgecko 4y ago
The grants include $60m to "upgrade" I-44 and I-75 from 4 to 6 lanes for a short stretch