4 ms·

The Meiji restoration, as this was called, removed the Shogunate (=top dog warlord) which had ruled for a good couple hundred of years and re-inserted imperial

by Tor3 4y ago

The Meiji restoration, as this was called, removed the Shogunate (=top dog warlord) which had ruled for a good couple hundred of years and re-inserted imperial rule (i.e. the Japanese emperor was again the ruler). This was done by the Japanese themselves (a bit of civil war took place for this to happen[0]). There was no external rule forced on Japan after Perry's black ships. No colonialism or external imperialism involved, so it's not really comparable to anything else. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boshin_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boshin_War

senthil_rajasek 4y ago
My comment was about Perry, who used violent threats to open trade with Japan, still being celebrated in Japan.
- Tor3 4y ago
  There was indeed a bit of (at least apparent) threat involved. No colonialism or imperialism though - Japan has never been a colony of anyone as long as Japan as a nation has existed (which is, officially, since around 660BC [0] [0] https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/japans-national-foundation-day https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/japans-nat... (which should probably be taken as seriously (or not) as the foundation of Rome in 753 BC)
  - TulliusCicero 4y ago
    There was the occupation post-WW2, which is somewhat similar, if much more understandable than typical colonization/imperialism.
  - user982 4y ago
    You have to define imperialism very narrowly to claim that. Perry's (overt) threat resulted in unequal treaties being forced on Japan. Japan's current Constitution was similarly written by Americans and forced on it during the post-WWII military occupation. Any nation that permanently hosts uncontrolled foreign troops and bases on its homeland is, at the very best, a client state.
    - DenisM 4y ago
      Perhaps we should make a distinction between colonial imperialism and modern imperialism. The latter mostly concerns itself with trade treaties, however lopsided, whereas the former also involved a lot more meddling in the culture, the power structure, and the internal structure of the economy.
    - aikinai 4y ago
      US bases in Japan have the opposite impact of colonialism. If it weren’t for the bases, Japan would have to pay for their own defense, using up finances and resources that can be allocated to growth and wealth in the current system. The current arrangement isn’t imposing on or extracting anything from Japan, just protecting it, mostly for free. Not that I’m saying this is unfair to America either; it’s mutually beneficial for both nations, which is why everyone has kept this happy arrangement for so long.
rippercushions 4y ago
> re-inserted imperial rule (i.e. the Japanese emperor was again the ruler) Eh, not really. The real military power behind the restoration was the Satsuma-Choshu Alliance, the Emperor was mostly[1] a convenient figurehead, and many of the Shogun's retainers transitioned smoothly into nobles and bureaucrats in the new system. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meiji_oligarchy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meiji_oligarchy [1] It's complicated though, and reams of paper have been written about eg. Hirohito's actual responsibility for WW2.
- Tor3 4y ago
  Well, yes, I didn't say anything contradicting that either. I wasn't about to write up the whole story - it is in any case available via that link I gave. I don't think I gave the impression that the Emperor himself rallied up the forces to fight the Shogunate.

by Tor3 4y ago

senthil_rajasek 4y ago

My comment was about Perry, who used violent threats to open trade with Japan, still being celebrated in Japan.

Tor3 4y ago
There was indeed a bit of (at least apparent) threat involved. No colonialism or imperialism though - Japan has never been a colony of anyone as long as Japan as a nation has existed (which is, officially, since around 660BC [0] [0] https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/japans-national-foundation-day https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/japans-nat... (which should probably be taken as seriously (or not) as the foundation of Rome in 753 BC)
- TulliusCicero 4y ago
  There was the occupation post-WW2, which is somewhat similar, if much more understandable than typical colonization/imperialism.
- user982 4y ago
  You have to define imperialism very narrowly to claim that. Perry's (overt) threat resulted in unequal treaties being forced on Japan. Japan's current Constitution was similarly written by Americans and forced on it during the post-WWII military occupation. Any nation that permanently hosts uncontrolled foreign troops and bases on its homeland is, at the very best, a client state.
  - DenisM 4y ago
    Perhaps we should make a distinction between colonial imperialism and modern imperialism. The latter mostly concerns itself with trade treaties, however lopsided, whereas the former also involved a lot more meddling in the culture, the power structure, and the internal structure of the economy.
  - aikinai 4y ago
    US bases in Japan have the opposite impact of colonialism. If it weren’t for the bases, Japan would have to pay for their own defense, using up finances and resources that can be allocated to growth and wealth in the current system. The current arrangement isn’t imposing on or extracting anything from Japan, just protecting it, mostly for free. Not that I’m saying this is unfair to America either; it’s mutually beneficial for both nations, which is why everyone has kept this happy arrangement for so long.

rippercushions 4y ago

> re-inserted imperial rule (i.e. the Japanese emperor was again the ruler) Eh, not really. The real military power behind the restoration was the Satsuma-Choshu Alliance, the Emperor was mostly[1] a convenient figurehead, and many of the Shogun's retainers transitioned smoothly into nobles and bureaucrats in the new system. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meiji_oligarchy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meiji_oligarchy [1] It's complicated though, and reams of paper have been written about eg. Hirohito's actual responsibility for WW2.

Tor3 4y ago
Well, yes, I didn't say anything contradicting that either. I wasn't about to write up the whole story - it is in any case available via that link I gave. I don't think I gave the impression that the Emperor himself rallied up the forces to fight the Shogunate.