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> You were used, they got what they needed and now it is time to go. That's how workers are treated and people should understand that. I can't tell if all of t

> You were used, they got what they needed and now it is time to go. That's how workers are treated and people should understand that. I can't tell if all of this is due to the age of people who have joined the workforce over the last decade, when we were in a constant uphill swing. Markets go through cycles, boom and bust. We happen to be in part of the cycle where interest rates are rising, inflation is high, profits margins are tightening and companies are laying off. "You were used" is a bit much. You go to work to earn a paycheck. I'm not sure how many people bought into the whole "we're a family" stuff, but obviously these are for-profit corporations and they are beholden only to their shareholders. There was never the illusion otherwise, unless you truly believed that now that you're in, you're in. I'm older so I've been through a number of these cycles, including having been laid off. Perhaps the decade+ of constant upward tragectory had people disillusioned that this was "normal". It wasn't, and now companies are downsizing.

MarkMarine 4y ago
>"You were used" is a bit much. You go to work to earn a paycheck. I'm not sure how many people bought into the whole "we're a family" stuff, but obviously these are for-profit corporations and they are beholden only to their shareholders. There was never the illusion otherwise, unless you truly believed that now that you're in, you're in. There is a lot of corporate ink spilled trying to convince people of exactly this. The counter to this kind of treatment is a strong union. Hopefully this goes a ways toward convincing people they need that level of protection.
- gitfan86 4y ago
  If people are always "protected" how do you deal with low performing companies? If Zoom becomes unusable because it is crashing all the time and everyone switches to another service where do you think the money is going to come from to pay these "protected" employees? Fire the CEO, sure, but where is the money coming from for the thousands of other employees?
  - andrekandre 4y ago
    > If people are always "protected" how do you deal with low performing companies? mentor them? help them find a better position? change managers? lots of things you can do before firing... also i think the word "protection" the previous commenter means is 'protection from random/mass firings/layoffs without cause' not firing for being lazy/sabotage etc
    - superfrank 4y ago
      > mentor them? help them find a better position? change managers? None of those help if you just need less people on payroll.
    - gitfan86 4y ago
      Mentor a company?
      - andrekandre 4y ago
        i have to admit, i completely read that as "employee".... though i wonder if the op also meant that...?
  - MarkMarine 4y ago
    Even in areas with good strong unions, there isn’t some kind of company wide protection. If the company doesn’t fit in the market, it goes away. I’m not weaving some fantasy tale, these systems exist in other countries that still have free markets and profitable companies.
madamelic 4y ago
> "You were used" is a bit much. I'd generally agree. I think my sentiment was a counter-point to the whole "we are a family", "we care about you" that companies put out to employees. Employees especially need to understand that's fine and good, but companies exist to make money. They _can_ care about you but only to the extent that it makes them money through your continuing loyalty. Your manager as a human can care about you, your manager as a boss cannot. I don't think many top-level managers is fooling themselves into thinking this behavior is anything but company loyalty. I am not quite entirely jaded, but I would certainly have choice words for my 24 year old self being overjoyed about my company buying me dinner at the office. It's a fun gesture but you need to understand as an employee what your company's priorities are and not get fooled into it being anything but a monetary transaction. But yes, to summarize, my language was a bit more coarse and pointed than the situation probably calls for.
kerkeslager 4y ago
> You go to work to earn a paycheck. I'm not sure how many people bought into the whole "we're a family" stuff, but obviously these are for-profit corporations and they are beholden only to their shareholders. That's "You were used" with extra steps. Why are you trying to rebrand this? > There was never the illusion otherwise, unless you truly believed that now that you're in, you're in. Just because people knew it was happening doesn't mean it's consensual or okay. Workers know that a system beholden only to shareholders isn't good for them, but they can't exactly go work elsewhere.
- jameshart 4y ago
  "You were used" implies you didn't get anything in return. But if you got paid, maybe you came out ahead on the deal?
  - kerkeslager 4y ago
    > "You were used" implies you didn't get anything in return. It doesn't imply that you didn't get anything, it implies that you didn't get enough. > But if you got paid, maybe you came out ahead on the deal? Workers almost never come out ahead on the deal. Company sees 100% revenue growth (as a result of worker's labor), worker gets a 3% raise. Company sees 10% revenue loss, worker gets laid off. It's the same story every cycle: the people at the top reap benefits while the people at the bottom pay the losses. It's only in the business echo chamber that anyone is even saying what you're saying. Everyone else knows that layoffs are bad for workers.
    - jameshart 4y ago
      If the company saw 10% revenue loss, and the employee got 2 years' pay, then I would argue the employee definitely came out with the better end of that deal. Of course layoffs are bad for workers. I'm just taking the controversial position that on the other hand, jobs are good for workers.
      - kerkeslager 4y ago
kodah 4y ago
> I can't tell if all of this is due to the age of people who have joined the workforce over the last decade, when we were in a constant uphill swing. I've lived through four recessions now and worked through two. My first working recession was while I was putting myself through college. We used to average one per decade, but now we're bordering on two. To understand the magnitude, my first working recession was a complete life reset for me. It's hard to look at businesses that are cash rich, posting record profits, and then doing layoffs as a result. Recession timelines: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_recessions_in_the_United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_recessions_in_the_Un...
spaceman_2020 4y ago
We’ve just had a 15 year boom market. Layoffs are a distant memory
phist_mcgee 4y ago
> profits margins are tightening Not even close for many corporations.

MarkMarine 4y ago

>"You were used" is a bit much. You go to work to earn a paycheck. I'm not sure how many people bought into the whole "we're a family" stuff, but obviously these are for-profit corporations and they are beholden only to their shareholders. There was never the illusion otherwise, unless you truly believed that now that you're in, you're in. There is a lot of corporate ink spilled trying to convince people of exactly this. The counter to this kind of treatment is a strong union. Hopefully this goes a ways toward convincing people they need that level of protection.

gitfan86 4y ago
If people are always "protected" how do you deal with low performing companies? If Zoom becomes unusable because it is crashing all the time and everyone switches to another service where do you think the money is going to come from to pay these "protected" employees? Fire the CEO, sure, but where is the money coming from for the thousands of other employees?
- andrekandre 4y ago
  > If people are always "protected" how do you deal with low performing companies? mentor them? help them find a better position? change managers? lots of things you can do before firing... also i think the word "protection" the previous commenter means is 'protection from random/mass firings/layoffs without cause' not firing for being lazy/sabotage etc
  - superfrank 4y ago
    > mentor them? help them find a better position? change managers? None of those help if you just need less people on payroll.
  - gitfan86 4y ago
    Mentor a company?
    - andrekandre 4y ago
      i have to admit, i completely read that as "employee".... though i wonder if the op also meant that...?
- MarkMarine 4y ago
  Even in areas with good strong unions, there isn’t some kind of company wide protection. If the company doesn’t fit in the market, it goes away. I’m not weaving some fantasy tale, these systems exist in other countries that still have free markets and profitable companies.

madamelic 4y ago

> "You were used" is a bit much. I'd generally agree. I think my sentiment was a counter-point to the whole "we are a family", "we care about you" that companies put out to employees. Employees especially need to understand that's fine and good, but companies exist to make money. They _can_ care about you but only to the extent that it makes them money through your continuing loyalty. Your manager as a human can care about you, your manager as a boss cannot. I don't think many top-level managers is fooling themselves into thinking this behavior is anything but company loyalty. I am not quite entirely jaded, but I would certainly have choice words for my 24 year old self being overjoyed about my company buying me dinner at the office. It's a fun gesture but you need to understand as an employee what your company's priorities are and not get fooled into it being anything but a monetary transaction. But yes, to summarize, my language was a bit more coarse and pointed than the situation probably calls for.

kerkeslager 4y ago

> You go to work to earn a paycheck. I'm not sure how many people bought into the whole "we're a family" stuff, but obviously these are for-profit corporations and they are beholden only to their shareholders. That's "You were used" with extra steps. Why are you trying to rebrand this? > There was never the illusion otherwise, unless you truly believed that now that you're in, you're in. Just because people knew it was happening doesn't mean it's consensual or okay. Workers know that a system beholden only to shareholders isn't good for them, but they can't exactly go work elsewhere.

jameshart 4y ago
"You were used" implies you didn't get anything in return. But if you got paid, maybe you came out ahead on the deal?
- kerkeslager 4y ago
  > "You were used" implies you didn't get anything in return. It doesn't imply that you didn't get anything, it implies that you didn't get enough. > But if you got paid, maybe you came out ahead on the deal? Workers almost never come out ahead on the deal. Company sees 100% revenue growth (as a result of worker's labor), worker gets a 3% raise. Company sees 10% revenue loss, worker gets laid off. It's the same story every cycle: the people at the top reap benefits while the people at the bottom pay the losses. It's only in the business echo chamber that anyone is even saying what you're saying. Everyone else knows that layoffs are bad for workers.
  - jameshart 4y ago
    If the company saw 10% revenue loss, and the employee got 2 years' pay, then I would argue the employee definitely came out with the better end of that deal. Of course layoffs are bad for workers. I'm just taking the controversial position that on the other hand, jobs are good for workers.
    - kerkeslager 4y ago

kodah 4y ago

> I can't tell if all of this is due to the age of people who have joined the workforce over the last decade, when we were in a constant uphill swing. I've lived through four recessions now and worked through two. My first working recession was while I was putting myself through college. We used to average one per decade, but now we're bordering on two. To understand the magnitude, my first working recession was a complete life reset for me. It's hard to look at businesses that are cash rich, posting record profits, and then doing layoffs as a result. Recession timelines: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_recessions_in_the_United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_recessions_in_the_Un...

spaceman_2020 4y ago

We’ve just had a 15 year boom market. Layoffs are a distant memory

phist_mcgee 4y ago

> profits margins are tightening Not even close for many corporations.