4 ms·

> Sorry, I should have been more clear. Desantis is banning books for political reasons that have nothing to do with the education of children. Sorry, no. Tha

> Sorry, I should have been more clear. Desantis is banning books for political reasons that have nothing to do with the education of children. Sorry, no. That's just "when I do it, it's good; but when they do it, it's evil." All these book decisions are for "political reasons," and they all have everything to do with the education of children.

Forgeties79 4y ago
>All these book decisions are for "political reasons," and they all have everything to do with the education of children. Should be easy to show us some major examples on the left then. I can't think of a single governor moving the way Abbott and DeSantis are.
- tablespoon 4y ago
  > Should be easy to show us some major examples on the left then. I can't think of a single governor moving the way Abbott and DeSantis are. It is. How many books that are anathema to the left do you think you'd find in a school library (e.g. something skeptical about transgenderism)? If you look at library weeding criteria, you'll typically find language about removing books that are now politically incorrect (though they wouldn't use that term). It's also a mistake to insist on exact symmetry. My understanding is the left is quite over-represented in the librarian profession as a whole, and "book ban" is misleadingly defined as overriding the choices of those public employees: > It is important to recognize that books available in schools, whether in a school or classroom library, or as part of a curriculum, were selected by librarians and educators as part of the educational offerings to students. Book bans occur when those choices are overridden by school boards, administrators, teachers, or even politicians, on the basis of a particular book’s content (https://pen.org/report/banned-usa-growing-movement-to-censor-books-in-schools/ https://pen.org/report/banned-usa-growing-movement-to-censor...). If a different situation were true (e.g. conservative Christians were quite over-represented in the librarian profession), I'm absolutely certain you'd see political responses from liberal government authorities.
  - Forgeties79 4y ago
    >If something different were true (e.g. conservative Christians were quite over-represented in the librarian profession), I'm absolutely sure you'd see political responses from liberal government authorities. This is demonstrably not true by the fact that this is happening more against topics conservatives find distasteful or offensive (such as LGBT works), as per your own article. Look at that map and the subjects being banned.
    - tablespoon 4y ago
      > This is conjecture. So? Is it unreasonable? Do you really think you'd see a rousing fight from the left to defend books that discouraged or condemned gender transitions? Or would you see outrage and calls that "something must be done!" to protect kids from those ideas? Even the ACLU is backing off from defending people and ideas that offend their liberal supporters. And the rest isn't conjecture.
      - Forgeties79 4y ago
        We don't need to guess. We have plenty of democrat governors who are not doing this at all. You still haven't provided an example and your own article contradicts your general statements.
        tablespoon 4y ago
        > We have plenty of democrat governors who are not doing this at all. You still haven't provided an example and your own article contradicts your general statements. You're missing my point completely, and misunderstanding how I was using the article I linked. To put it really bluntly: a Democrat governor and a Republican governor are not going to respond identically to an abortion ban. Likewise, a Democrat governor isn't going to take any action to "ban books" if lower level government actors are already making book decisions according to his wishes. It would be unnecessary. Slot in a Republican governor into the same scenario, and he has to override those lower level government actors who are working in harmony with Democrat priorities. It's foolish to look for or require total symmetry to see similarities. There are "book bans" coming from both ideological factions, they're just implemented differently.
- onetimeusename 4y ago
  Here are some related things I managed to find: * Gov. Newsom banned remedial classes being taught at community colleges. * Conversion Therapy has been banned and attempted to be banned by many states in particular in public schools. * Bibles being banned by school districts. This isn't a defense of Ron Desantis or any of those things. I'm not convinced Ron Desantis is the only governor that would ban books. If it's politically expedient to ban content, that's what happens in a democracy. I am not in favor of book bans but I very much doubt the defense of principles. The same people complaining about book bans would absolutely ban books if objectionable political content were being pushed on children from the other direction. Or alternatively what is the principled defense of things like the Dept. of Ed. promoting the discredited 1619 Project?
  - Forgeties79 4y ago
    > Conversion Therapy has been banned and attempted to be banned by many states in particular in public schools. Conversion therapy is abuse. > Gov. Newsom banned remedial classes being taught at community colleges. You need to be more specific. Do you have a source?
    - onetimeusename 4y ago
      > Conversion Therapy is abuse. This is exactly what a lot of supporters of Desantis would probably say about gender affirmation care for people with gender dysphoria. My point here is it just seems unlikely Desantis is the only governor that would ban books in schools. Conversion therapy is illegal in multiple states so putting those books in a student library would break the law so one might call that a ban. I would be shocked if you could convince me there is a governor who would always decline to sign bills that ban material from schools.
      - Forgeties79 4y ago
        >This is exactly what a lot of supporters of Desantis would probably say about gender affirmation care for people with gender dysphoria. And? It's an ongoing debate that even I am unsure about and perhaps maybe they'll be vindicated one day. But conversion therapy is categorically abuse today. And for good reason. >I would be shocked if you could convince me there is a governor who would always decline to sign bills that ban material from schools. That's not really how it works. You need to provide evidence of Democrat governors banning books at the state level a la DeSantis and Abbott. I can't prove what they wouldn't do because the situation is theoretical.

Forgeties79 4y ago

>All these book decisions are for "political reasons," and they all have everything to do with the education of children. Should be easy to show us some major examples on the left then. I can't think of a single governor moving the way Abbott and DeSantis are.

tablespoon 4y ago
> Should be easy to show us some major examples on the left then. I can't think of a single governor moving the way Abbott and DeSantis are. It is. How many books that are anathema to the left do you think you'd find in a school library (e.g. something skeptical about transgenderism)? If you look at library weeding criteria, you'll typically find language about removing books that are now politically incorrect (though they wouldn't use that term). It's also a mistake to insist on exact symmetry. My understanding is the left is quite over-represented in the librarian profession as a whole, and "book ban" is misleadingly defined as overriding the choices of those public employees: > It is important to recognize that books available in schools, whether in a school or classroom library, or as part of a curriculum, were selected by librarians and educators as part of the educational offerings to students. Book bans occur when those choices are overridden by school boards, administrators, teachers, or even politicians, on the basis of a particular book’s content (https://pen.org/report/banned-usa-growing-movement-to-censor-books-in-schools/ https://pen.org/report/banned-usa-growing-movement-to-censor...). If a different situation were true (e.g. conservative Christians were quite over-represented in the librarian profession), I'm absolutely certain you'd see political responses from liberal government authorities.
- Forgeties79 4y ago
  >If something different were true (e.g. conservative Christians were quite over-represented in the librarian profession), I'm absolutely sure you'd see political responses from liberal government authorities. This is demonstrably not true by the fact that this is happening more against topics conservatives find distasteful or offensive (such as LGBT works), as per your own article. Look at that map and the subjects being banned.
  - tablespoon 4y ago
    > This is conjecture. So? Is it unreasonable? Do you really think you'd see a rousing fight from the left to defend books that discouraged or condemned gender transitions? Or would you see outrage and calls that "something must be done!" to protect kids from those ideas? Even the ACLU is backing off from defending people and ideas that offend their liberal supporters. And the rest isn't conjecture.
    - Forgeties79 4y ago
      We don't need to guess. We have plenty of democrat governors who are not doing this at all. You still haven't provided an example and your own article contradicts your general statements.
      - tablespoon 4y ago
        > We have plenty of democrat governors who are not doing this at all. You still haven't provided an example and your own article contradicts your general statements. You're missing my point completely, and misunderstanding how I was using the article I linked. To put it really bluntly: a Democrat governor and a Republican governor are not going to respond identically to an abortion ban. Likewise, a Democrat governor isn't going to take any action to "ban books" if lower level government actors are already making book decisions according to his wishes. It would be unnecessary. Slot in a Republican governor into the same scenario, and he has to override those lower level government actors who are working in harmony with Democrat priorities. It's foolish to look for or require total symmetry to see similarities. There are "book bans" coming from both ideological factions, they're just implemented differently.
onetimeusename 4y ago
Here are some related things I managed to find: * Gov. Newsom banned remedial classes being taught at community colleges. * Conversion Therapy has been banned and attempted to be banned by many states in particular in public schools. * Bibles being banned by school districts. This isn't a defense of Ron Desantis or any of those things. I'm not convinced Ron Desantis is the only governor that would ban books. If it's politically expedient to ban content, that's what happens in a democracy. I am not in favor of book bans but I very much doubt the defense of principles. The same people complaining about book bans would absolutely ban books if objectionable political content were being pushed on children from the other direction. Or alternatively what is the principled defense of things like the Dept. of Ed. promoting the discredited 1619 Project?
- Forgeties79 4y ago
  > Conversion Therapy has been banned and attempted to be banned by many states in particular in public schools. Conversion therapy is abuse. > Gov. Newsom banned remedial classes being taught at community colleges. You need to be more specific. Do you have a source?
  - onetimeusename 4y ago
    > Conversion Therapy is abuse. This is exactly what a lot of supporters of Desantis would probably say about gender affirmation care for people with gender dysphoria. My point here is it just seems unlikely Desantis is the only governor that would ban books in schools. Conversion therapy is illegal in multiple states so putting those books in a student library would break the law so one might call that a ban. I would be shocked if you could convince me there is a governor who would always decline to sign bills that ban material from schools.
    - Forgeties79 4y ago
      >This is exactly what a lot of supporters of Desantis would probably say about gender affirmation care for people with gender dysphoria. And? It's an ongoing debate that even I am unsure about and perhaps maybe they'll be vindicated one day. But conversion therapy is categorically abuse today. And for good reason. >I would be shocked if you could convince me there is a governor who would always decline to sign bills that ban material from schools. That's not really how it works. You need to provide evidence of Democrat governors banning books at the state level a la DeSantis and Abbott. I can't prove what they wouldn't do because the situation is theoretical.