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Falling on your sword is literally exactly what accountability used to be. …and the stakes are even higher today if you count the number of people impacted by

Falling on your sword is literally exactly what accountability used to be. …and the stakes are even higher today if you count the number of people impacted by poor decisions.

lazide 4y ago
Cite? Accountability means (from every definition I’ve found!) taking responsibility for one’s actions and their consequences. Falling on one’s sword has, from what I’ve always read, has been portrayed as someone accepting too much responsibility, to the point they actually avoid dealing with the consequences of their actions and make the situation worse overall by killing themselves. After all, no need to actually work hard making amends or doing better if you’re dead, eh? And it can even make the person doing it somewhat of a martyr, even if they created the whole situation to begin with, as it can make it look like those calling for it or pushing for retribution were actually just looking for a scapegoat and the dead one is actually a victim.
- s1artibartfast 4y ago
  I have never heard your definition. My connotation has always been ritual suicide. E.g. Seppuku in Japan, captains going down with the ship, ect. The origin of the phrase in the west stems from the roman practice of military ritual suicide following defeat. It was more a matter of honor than seeking victimhood. A captured general represented an embarrassment to the empire, provides the enemy with a hostage, and would likely be tortured to give up information. Suicide in defeat was honorable as it served the empire and denied the enemy leverage. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Ancient_Roman_military_personnel_who_committed_suicide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Ancient_Roman_militar... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorinus_(died_53_BC) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorinus_(died_53_BC) https://www.jstor.org/stable/43830420 https://www.jstor.org/stable/43830420
  - wheelinsupial 4y ago
    Are you talking about "accountability" or "falling on your sword?"
    - s1artibartfast 4y ago
      I'm talking about the meaning and entomology of falling on your sword. That said, I think it is a huge stretch to translate this history to the context of CEO accountability.
      - wheelinsupial 4y ago
        Thanks for clarifying. I was having a really tough time understanding your response. I thought you were saying you hadn't heard the dictionary definition that lazide was quoting, and were saying lazide made that definition up and you had a different definition you made up that doesn't match.
      - jholman 4y ago
        What does this have to do with the study of insects?
  - lazide 4y ago
    Are you referring to 'falling on your sword', or 'accountability' in your response? Some of your examples are not equivalent to falling on their sword. Notably, going down with the ship is the opposite (in some ways), as it is 'fighting to the end to save the ship and it's people'. If someone (going down the ship wise) doesn't get on a lifeboat when everyone else has already gotten off, then yeah it's probably more about avoiding actual accountability (aka having to stand and take responsibility/long term consequences). Regarding Victimhood/Martyrdom, there are many apocryphal accounts and personal anecdotes one can throw out. You'll get stories anyone in senior leadership when a CEO gets pushed out, to [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%C5%ABshingura https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%C5%ABshingura] (specifically Lord Asano), to Gnaeus Domitius Corbulo [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnaeus_Domitius_Corbulo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnaeus_Domitius_Corbulo], and many others. Sometimes folks want blood, and they won't be satisfied until they get it. And often someone either stupidly volunteers (actually), or gets 'volunteered' by their boss. Also, how is killing yourself quickly and (relatively) painlessly after a military failure NOT the relatively easy way out - instead of say, dying while fighting the enemy to the death (probably horribly disfigured and maimed in the process), or dying in torture while not giving anything up, or dying while trying to save the ship and the other crew, or returning in shame and being a social outcast, or dying after being shamed in trial followed by an execution, etc. Literally all those other options can seem a whole lot harder than a gladius through the solar plexus at the moment. Also, notably, sometimes folks had 'help' on that last bit, though rarely was it featured prominently in the PR. Seppuku - similar. Rather than 'living with dishonor' (aka being outcast from a insular and all encompassing society), or having to stand trial and defend yourself and getting shamed then executed anyway, etc. it's killing yourself 'with honor', so your family doesn't get their benefits taken and similarly outcast (as badly). Seppuku generally involves the second beheaded the person before they've had a chance to suffer much too, though there have been famous 'mistakes' made at times. It also could be ordered by the Daimyo, Shogun, etc. and it was pretty common (from accounts at the time) for folks to be thrown under the bus and ordered to commit it if they didn't succeed at what the lord had ordered them to do or were just being inconvenient to the narrative. Including significant 'help' from seconds. Which is, well, pretty much the example of a scapegoat.
    - s1artibartfast 4y ago
simplotek 4y ago
> Falling on your sword is literally exactly what accountability used to be. I wonder if you hold this level of rigour towards your own failings and shortcomings, or if this desire is directed exclusively at everyone besides yourself.
- lazide 4y ago
  “For my friends, everything. For my enemies? The law.” - Oscar R. Benavides, President of Peru from 1933 to 1939
ericd 4y ago
The people being laid off have to go find another highly overpaid job. Somewhat distressing, to be sure, but in the scheme of what you're talking about, not really high stakes at all. Failure in the cases you're comparing it to usually involved death for a large number of people. The stakes are nowhere near the same.

Falling on your sword is literally exactly what accountability used to be. …and the stakes are even higher today if you count the number of people impacted by poor decisions.

lazide 4y ago

Cite? Accountability means (from every definition I’ve found!) taking responsibility for one’s actions and their consequences. Falling on one’s sword has, from what I’ve always read, has been portrayed as someone accepting too much responsibility, to the point they actually avoid dealing with the consequences of their actions and make the situation worse overall by killing themselves. After all, no need to actually work hard making amends or doing better if you’re dead, eh? And it can even make the person doing it somewhat of a martyr, even if they created the whole situation to begin with, as it can make it look like those calling for it or pushing for retribution were actually just looking for a scapegoat and the dead one is actually a victim.

s1artibartfast 4y ago
I have never heard your definition. My connotation has always been ritual suicide. E.g. Seppuku in Japan, captains going down with the ship, ect. The origin of the phrase in the west stems from the roman practice of military ritual suicide following defeat. It was more a matter of honor than seeking victimhood. A captured general represented an embarrassment to the empire, provides the enemy with a hostage, and would likely be tortured to give up information. Suicide in defeat was honorable as it served the empire and denied the enemy leverage. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Ancient_Roman_military_personnel_who_committed_suicide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Ancient_Roman_militar... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorinus_(died_53_BC) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorinus_(died_53_BC) https://www.jstor.org/stable/43830420 https://www.jstor.org/stable/43830420
- wheelinsupial 4y ago
  Are you talking about "accountability" or "falling on your sword?"
  - s1artibartfast 4y ago
    I'm talking about the meaning and entomology of falling on your sword. That said, I think it is a huge stretch to translate this history to the context of CEO accountability.
    - wheelinsupial 4y ago
      Thanks for clarifying. I was having a really tough time understanding your response. I thought you were saying you hadn't heard the dictionary definition that lazide was quoting, and were saying lazide made that definition up and you had a different definition you made up that doesn't match.
    - jholman 4y ago
      What does this have to do with the study of insects?
- lazide 4y ago
  Are you referring to 'falling on your sword', or 'accountability' in your response? Some of your examples are not equivalent to falling on their sword. Notably, going down with the ship is the opposite (in some ways), as it is 'fighting to the end to save the ship and it's people'. If someone (going down the ship wise) doesn't get on a lifeboat when everyone else has already gotten off, then yeah it's probably more about avoiding actual accountability (aka having to stand and take responsibility/long term consequences). Regarding Victimhood/Martyrdom, there are many apocryphal accounts and personal anecdotes one can throw out. You'll get stories anyone in senior leadership when a CEO gets pushed out, to [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%C5%ABshingura https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%C5%ABshingura] (specifically Lord Asano), to Gnaeus Domitius Corbulo [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnaeus_Domitius_Corbulo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnaeus_Domitius_Corbulo], and many others. Sometimes folks want blood, and they won't be satisfied until they get it. And often someone either stupidly volunteers (actually), or gets 'volunteered' by their boss. Also, how is killing yourself quickly and (relatively) painlessly after a military failure NOT the relatively easy way out - instead of say, dying while fighting the enemy to the death (probably horribly disfigured and maimed in the process), or dying in torture while not giving anything up, or dying while trying to save the ship and the other crew, or returning in shame and being a social outcast, or dying after being shamed in trial followed by an execution, etc. Literally all those other options can seem a whole lot harder than a gladius through the solar plexus at the moment. Also, notably, sometimes folks had 'help' on that last bit, though rarely was it featured prominently in the PR. Seppuku - similar. Rather than 'living with dishonor' (aka being outcast from a insular and all encompassing society), or having to stand trial and defend yourself and getting shamed then executed anyway, etc. it's killing yourself 'with honor', so your family doesn't get their benefits taken and similarly outcast (as badly). Seppuku generally involves the second beheaded the person before they've had a chance to suffer much too, though there have been famous 'mistakes' made at times. It also could be ordered by the Daimyo, Shogun, etc. and it was pretty common (from accounts at the time) for folks to be thrown under the bus and ordered to commit it if they didn't succeed at what the lord had ordered them to do or were just being inconvenient to the narrative. Including significant 'help' from seconds. Which is, well, pretty much the example of a scapegoat.
  - s1artibartfast 4y ago

simplotek 4y ago

> Falling on your sword is literally exactly what accountability used to be. I wonder if you hold this level of rigour towards your own failings and shortcomings, or if this desire is directed exclusively at everyone besides yourself.

lazide 4y ago
“For my friends, everything. For my enemies? The law.” - Oscar R. Benavides, President of Peru from 1933 to 1939

ericd 4y ago

The people being laid off have to go find another highly overpaid job. Somewhat distressing, to be sure, but in the scheme of what you're talking about, not really high stakes at all. Failure in the cases you're comparing it to usually involved death for a large number of people. The stakes are nowhere near the same.