6 ms·

short of giving shares away to laid off employees there isn't much a founder can do, majority of their net worth is equity. Even for the CEOs their income is mo

short of giving shares away to laid off employees there isn't much a founder can do, majority of their net worth is equity. Even for the CEOs their income is mostly tied to stock performance. If the CEO was much worse than the average tech CEO the board would fire them the biggest reason these companies are getting flak is due to pretending they weren't like other industry "soulless corporations". People naturally don't like hypocrisy, you can't LARP like your employees are family to squeeze productivity out of them and then drop them at the slightest downturn in profit. the social contract has been broken for the worse between employees and companies, people just need to act accordingly

MuffinFlavored 4y ago
> short of giving shares away to laid off employees there isn't much a founder can do is it realistic to ask a company not to hire if they think they're just going to lay people off 12-18 months later or is that too perfect of a science? obviously you don't want to ask companies not to try to grow/be conservative because then we'll have too much unemployment... i think? it's just so "convenient" the timing of all of these layoffs. it's like because one company did it, the climate is "ok, it's acceptable, let's do it now while we can squeeze it in with everybody else doing it so we don't look so bad/get singled out" i get it, monetary rates/fiscal policy changed. but the fed has been signaling this change for months, going slow. how long has zoom known they need to layoff 15% of people? they've probably been carrying this "weight"/burden for a while?
- ethbr0 4y ago
  The most ethical way to do it would have been to tell your candidates "We're hiring for excess capacity, so this would be a contract to hire position." Then candidates might have made different decisions, like "Maybe this job isn't worth relocating my family internationally for." It's pretty Machiavellian to present the role as otherwise, when HR had strong suspicions it'd be first on the chopping block. Does a company have to telegraph the nature of the position this? No. Of course not! And it's not even in their best interest to do it. But does it make them ethically shitty to optimize their offer attractiveness at the expense of people's lives? In my book, yes.
  - s1artibartfast 4y ago
    This assumes that things are all known and planned out in advance. It also ignores that contract positions are a huge liability in California.
credit_guy 4y ago
Goalpost moving. The people who complain that CEO's don't show any accountability, will then complain that whatever consequences the CEO's face (or self impose) are insignificant. Would you like this guy to commit hara-kiri?
- flandish 4y ago
  Depends on the industry. With tech like this.. salary/bonus changes are fine. Or wage labor pay increases. Anything and including in all cases no stockholder dividends or buybacks. Price should tank accordingly. When it comes to industry directly related to life, like health, pharmacy, electric/fuel, housing - those kinds of choices made should result in prison.
- bell-cot 4y ago
  How about a few CEO's getting fired for cause by their Boards, because their "I just do whatever the cooler kids are doing" hiring/firing binges show that they really aren't competent to run a company?
  - creato 4y ago
    In the case of zoom, they had an explosion in users and demand due to their product being a good solution to some of the problems imposed by the pandemic. What is your suggestion? Companies hire when they have a lot of demand, the fire when they don’t. Just like basically any other organism’s response to its situation.
    - b112 4y ago
      I wonder. Where were all these detractors, when all the hiring was happening, at record salaries, over the last 2 years? Did they heap praise on this same CEO, when he hired, provided jobs, record salaries, and more? Even now, after these layoffs, this same CEO resides over a company worth immensely more, with more employees than 2+ years ago, and at excellent salaries. So where were the praises before the layoffs? Because that's the logical inverse of the current behaviour. If not, then all these complaints are just immensely hypocritical.
lazide 4y ago
Eh, they’ll get flak by someone no matter what they do. It’s a matter of degrees, and general expectations, and where they chart their course relative to that. Zoom has little control over the overall societal state of ‘social contract’, they can just pick where they are relative to it and then reap the effects of that. If they never laid off anyone, in this environment that has effects too, and it will look different than if this was the 50’s or 60’s or whatever idealized situation we might imagine.

MuffinFlavored 4y ago

> short of giving shares away to laid off employees there isn't much a founder can do is it realistic to ask a company not to hire if they think they're just going to lay people off 12-18 months later or is that too perfect of a science? obviously you don't want to ask companies not to try to grow/be conservative because then we'll have too much unemployment... i think? it's just so "convenient" the timing of all of these layoffs. it's like because one company did it, the climate is "ok, it's acceptable, let's do it now while we can squeeze it in with everybody else doing it so we don't look so bad/get singled out" i get it, monetary rates/fiscal policy changed. but the fed has been signaling this change for months, going slow. how long has zoom known they need to layoff 15% of people? they've probably been carrying this "weight"/burden for a while?

ethbr0 4y ago
The most ethical way to do it would have been to tell your candidates "We're hiring for excess capacity, so this would be a contract to hire position." Then candidates might have made different decisions, like "Maybe this job isn't worth relocating my family internationally for." It's pretty Machiavellian to present the role as otherwise, when HR had strong suspicions it'd be first on the chopping block. Does a company have to telegraph the nature of the position this? No. Of course not! And it's not even in their best interest to do it. But does it make them ethically shitty to optimize their offer attractiveness at the expense of people's lives? In my book, yes.
- s1artibartfast 4y ago
  This assumes that things are all known and planned out in advance. It also ignores that contract positions are a huge liability in California.

credit_guy 4y ago

Goalpost moving. The people who complain that CEO's don't show any accountability, will then complain that whatever consequences the CEO's face (or self impose) are insignificant. Would you like this guy to commit hara-kiri?

flandish 4y ago
Depends on the industry. With tech like this.. salary/bonus changes are fine. Or wage labor pay increases. Anything and including in all cases no stockholder dividends or buybacks. Price should tank accordingly. When it comes to industry directly related to life, like health, pharmacy, electric/fuel, housing - those kinds of choices made should result in prison.
bell-cot 4y ago
How about a few CEO's getting fired for cause by their Boards, because their "I just do whatever the cooler kids are doing" hiring/firing binges show that they really aren't competent to run a company?
- creato 4y ago
  In the case of zoom, they had an explosion in users and demand due to their product being a good solution to some of the problems imposed by the pandemic. What is your suggestion? Companies hire when they have a lot of demand, the fire when they don’t. Just like basically any other organism’s response to its situation.
  - b112 4y ago
    I wonder. Where were all these detractors, when all the hiring was happening, at record salaries, over the last 2 years? Did they heap praise on this same CEO, when he hired, provided jobs, record salaries, and more? Even now, after these layoffs, this same CEO resides over a company worth immensely more, with more employees than 2+ years ago, and at excellent salaries. So where were the praises before the layoffs? Because that's the logical inverse of the current behaviour. If not, then all these complaints are just immensely hypocritical.

lazide 4y ago

Eh, they’ll get flak by someone no matter what they do. It’s a matter of degrees, and general expectations, and where they chart their course relative to that. Zoom has little control over the overall societal state of ‘social contract’, they can just pick where they are relative to it and then reap the effects of that. If they never laid off anyone, in this environment that has effects too, and it will look different than if this was the 50’s or 60’s or whatever idealized situation we might imagine.