8 ms·

>ChatGPT is literally changing how school will test their students, for a start. Sure, instead of schools checking for plagiarism from other students' papers u

>ChatGPT is literally changing how school will test their students, for a start. Sure, instead of schools checking for plagiarism from other students' papers using turnitin.com, they'll check for plagiarism using ChatGPT tools that scan for known output from their industrial-scale amalgamation of plagiarized materials. Big whoop.

humanizersequel 4y ago
All math homework through the high school level is now as simple as figuring out how to describe it to ChatGPT (or maybe ChatGPT 2.0 for particularly tricky examples). Paper-writing is now a matter of figuring out how to rephrase LLM output in your own words to get around any watermarking or pattern detection.
- eganist 4y ago
  Wolfram alpha has been around for math cheats (and people like me who just needed a more visual representation to learn) for a while now. Including proof of work.
  - LarryMullins 4y ago
    Years before wolfram alpha, we had TI-89s with computer algebra systems for cheating your way through highschool math.
    - eganist 4y ago
      Oh yeah, it's why most of my classes restricted us to TI-83s. The TI-89 was restricted in schools to basically calc and above, and the TI-92 was just banned. Lol
      - LarryMullins 4y ago
        In my school TI-89s were unrestricted, but I think that was mostly because teachers were only trained with 83s and assumed the 89 had equivalent capabilities. The SAT permitting the 89 probably had something to do with it too, since the 92 was banned (because qwerty as I understand it.)
- frgtpsswrdlame 4y ago
  You can't figure out how to describe a math problem correctly to ChatGPT without already knowing the solution.
- dhdgrygev 4y ago
  Maybe this should give you a hint that said work is completely pointless and merely exists to waste student's time.
bhhaskin 4y ago
Or just require students to use software that keeps track of version history or require spyware installed.
- SoftTalker 4y ago
  Go back to longhand. Even if they are plagiarizing, they might learn something from the exercise of rewriting by hand.
  - suddenclarity 4y ago
    That's solved by putting a pen on your 3d printer.
    - genewitch 4y ago
      Or a second-hand Cricut...
Loughla 4y ago
I mean, that's certainly part of it. But you're also seeing very fast restructuring of individual courses (because programs overall will definitely take years to restructure because higher education moves so damned slow) to account for these tools. In the small institution I am currently working with, the English courses, in one week, integrated chatgpt as a tool for students to work with. It's part of the collaborative idea building and development process now for every student enrolled in creative writing and writing analysis classes, and that happened in one week. I cannot stress enough how unbelievably fast that is for higher ed. That's faster than light speed. And we're not even that well resourced. I have to imagine there are other examples where it's more than just running through a bot to scan for known outputs.
- hgsgm 4y ago
  Wow, instead of learning and being creative, just write a out whatever the generic safe whitewashed chatbot says? Why pay for the college?
- stcroixx 4y ago
  Sounds like they simply panicked and threw something together with little thought or preparation, what, right in the middle of an actual course? And they want to charge kids for this kind of 'expert instruction'? I'd be pissed as a student.
  - Loughla 4y ago
    What a weird assumption you made there. In what way does what I wrote sound panicked? Because it was a week? Yes it was fast, but it was a massive effort of the entire english faculty. It's integrated into existing assignments, modifying processes that are super well established already. It was like integrating a new person into the class. Also, it was before semester, so the students literally saw nothing weird; that was another strange assumption for you to make. Just a tip, and don't read tone in this statement, but don't assume things. 9/10 times you're going to be incorrect. It's much better to ask questions, instead of making statements with question marks at the end of them.
scottyah 4y ago
> industrial-scale amalgamation of plagiarized materials More Big Data!
criddell 4y ago
Is it crazy to think that instead of stepping up in the war against AI we instead try to figure out a way to teach kids assuming they will use AIs?
- SoftTalker 4y ago
  Are we trying to produce adults who are able to think critically and creatively, and who reach their full intellectual potential, or are we trying to produce adults who can push a few buttons and blindly believe what the machine tells them?
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - nickersonm 4y ago
    > In fact, [writing] will introduce forgetfulness into the soul of those who learn it: they will not practice using their memory because they will put their trust in writing, which is external and depends on signs that belong to others, instead of trying to remember from the inside, completely on their own. - attributed to Socrates by Plato. c.399-347 BCE. “Phaedrus.”
    - drowsspa 4y ago
      Pretty sure there's a fallacy named after this whole "hey this is just exactly like before so we have nothing to be concerned about".
      - nickersonm 4y ago
        The point is that all technology is a tool. Whether it be writing, calculators, or various narrow AI software. We can either bemoan the loss of a now-less-useful skill (memorization, long division, longform writing), or learn how to use these tools to better achieve our goals.
        4y ago
penjelly 4y ago
what if teachers ask chatgpt how best to test students despite the existence of a tool like chatgpt enabling cheating
maliker 4y ago
It appears that it's hard to detect AI generated content. E.g. true detection rates are only around 25% and there are also techniques to further mask output [1]. [1] https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/innovation/chatgpt-can-help-fool-openais-anti-cheating-tool-rcna68855 https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/innovation/chatgpt-can-help-foo...
- bombcar 4y ago
  You only need enough to flag suspect content, and then the teacher calls the student in for a quick oral exam - the fakers will flounder, the reals will pass.
  - wongarsu 4y ago
    Even if you understand the material well, doing assigned tasks takes a lot of time. Especially if it's free form text. And "I want to do something more interesting right now" is at least as powerful a motivator to cheat assignments as "I don't know how to do this".
    - red-iron-pine 4y ago
      Aye, if I mostly know a subject why bother to take the time to write 10 pages when I can outsource that to a bot, and if they question me I can do a 20 min oral interview and save myself the trouble? seems like a no-brainer in the long term.

humanizersequel 4y ago

All math homework through the high school level is now as simple as figuring out how to describe it to ChatGPT (or maybe ChatGPT 2.0 for particularly tricky examples). Paper-writing is now a matter of figuring out how to rephrase LLM output in your own words to get around any watermarking or pattern detection.

eganist 4y ago
Wolfram alpha has been around for math cheats (and people like me who just needed a more visual representation to learn) for a while now. Including proof of work.
- LarryMullins 4y ago
  Years before wolfram alpha, we had TI-89s with computer algebra systems for cheating your way through highschool math.
  - eganist 4y ago
    Oh yeah, it's why most of my classes restricted us to TI-83s. The TI-89 was restricted in schools to basically calc and above, and the TI-92 was just banned. Lol
    - LarryMullins 4y ago
      In my school TI-89s were unrestricted, but I think that was mostly because teachers were only trained with 83s and assumed the 89 had equivalent capabilities. The SAT permitting the 89 probably had something to do with it too, since the 92 was banned (because qwerty as I understand it.)
frgtpsswrdlame 4y ago
You can't figure out how to describe a math problem correctly to ChatGPT without already knowing the solution.
dhdgrygev 4y ago
Maybe this should give you a hint that said work is completely pointless and merely exists to waste student's time.

bhhaskin 4y ago

Or just require students to use software that keeps track of version history or require spyware installed.

SoftTalker 4y ago
Go back to longhand. Even if they are plagiarizing, they might learn something from the exercise of rewriting by hand.
- suddenclarity 4y ago
  That's solved by putting a pen on your 3d printer.
  - genewitch 4y ago
    Or a second-hand Cricut...

Loughla 4y ago

I mean, that's certainly part of it. But you're also seeing very fast restructuring of individual courses (because programs overall will definitely take years to restructure because higher education moves so damned slow) to account for these tools. In the small institution I am currently working with, the English courses, in one week, integrated chatgpt as a tool for students to work with. It's part of the collaborative idea building and development process now for every student enrolled in creative writing and writing analysis classes, and that happened in one week. I cannot stress enough how unbelievably fast that is for higher ed. That's faster than light speed. And we're not even that well resourced. I have to imagine there are other examples where it's more than just running through a bot to scan for known outputs.

hgsgm 4y ago
Wow, instead of learning and being creative, just write a out whatever the generic safe whitewashed chatbot says? Why pay for the college?
stcroixx 4y ago
Sounds like they simply panicked and threw something together with little thought or preparation, what, right in the middle of an actual course? And they want to charge kids for this kind of 'expert instruction'? I'd be pissed as a student.
- Loughla 4y ago
  What a weird assumption you made there. In what way does what I wrote sound panicked? Because it was a week? Yes it was fast, but it was a massive effort of the entire english faculty. It's integrated into existing assignments, modifying processes that are super well established already. It was like integrating a new person into the class. Also, it was before semester, so the students literally saw nothing weird; that was another strange assumption for you to make. Just a tip, and don't read tone in this statement, but don't assume things. 9/10 times you're going to be incorrect. It's much better to ask questions, instead of making statements with question marks at the end of them.

scottyah 4y ago

> industrial-scale amalgamation of plagiarized materials More Big Data!

criddell 4y ago

Is it crazy to think that instead of stepping up in the war against AI we instead try to figure out a way to teach kids assuming they will use AIs?

SoftTalker 4y ago
Are we trying to produce adults who are able to think critically and creatively, and who reach their full intellectual potential, or are we trying to produce adults who can push a few buttons and blindly believe what the machine tells them?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- nickersonm 4y ago
  > In fact, [writing] will introduce forgetfulness into the soul of those who learn it: they will not practice using their memory because they will put their trust in writing, which is external and depends on signs that belong to others, instead of trying to remember from the inside, completely on their own. - attributed to Socrates by Plato. c.399-347 BCE. “Phaedrus.”
  - drowsspa 4y ago
    Pretty sure there's a fallacy named after this whole "hey this is just exactly like before so we have nothing to be concerned about".
    - nickersonm 4y ago
      The point is that all technology is a tool. Whether it be writing, calculators, or various narrow AI software. We can either bemoan the loss of a now-less-useful skill (memorization, long division, longform writing), or learn how to use these tools to better achieve our goals.
      - 4y ago

penjelly 4y ago

what if teachers ask chatgpt how best to test students despite the existence of a tool like chatgpt enabling cheating

maliker 4y ago

It appears that it's hard to detect AI generated content. E.g. true detection rates are only around 25% and there are also techniques to further mask output [1]. [1] https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/innovation/chatgpt-can-help-fool-openais-anti-cheating-tool-rcna68855 https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/innovation/chatgpt-can-help-foo...

bombcar 4y ago
You only need enough to flag suspect content, and then the teacher calls the student in for a quick oral exam - the fakers will flounder, the reals will pass.
- wongarsu 4y ago
  Even if you understand the material well, doing assigned tasks takes a lot of time. Especially if it's free form text. And "I want to do something more interesting right now" is at least as powerful a motivator to cheat assignments as "I don't know how to do this".
  - red-iron-pine 4y ago
    Aye, if I mostly know a subject why bother to take the time to write 10 pages when I can outsource that to a bot, and if they question me I can do a 20 min oral interview and save myself the trouble? seems like a no-brainer in the long term.