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There is absolutely nothing wrong with the state banning books from public schools. No sane person would object from banning literal hardcore pornography from s

by xyzzyz 4y ago

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the state banning books from public schools. No sane person would object from banning literal hardcore pornography from school libraries. It would be ridiculous to suggest that the state must allow the librarians to stock pornographic magazines on school library shelves. Same goes, for example, for books glorifying murderous regimes like Nazism or Communism. Since the government have every right, and in fact in some cases a moral duty to ban certain materials from schools, the only question here is what materials exactly should children be encouraged to read, and, on the other hand, what will damage their lives and minds. Individual parents, of course, are free to disagree, and they can show their children whatever they want. However, the whole point of democracy is that the elected officials have mandate on behalf of the majority of the voters to exercise control over state institutions. If voters do not like what DeSantis is doing, they can vote in his opponent during next election.

jrm4 4y ago
This is painfully wrong. There is absolutely everything wrong with THE STATE banning books from public schools. The state's job is to set up and maintain a structure by which localities etc. can more-or-less self govern their methodology of education and handle things like content, and e.g. fire your hypothetical school person who's glorifying Nazism. And the actual state should only be getting involved in deeply extreme cases, if at all.
- xyzzyz 4y ago
  You are describing a theory of governance that has no bearing on the reality of today’s America. Over 20th century, it has been clearly and definitively established that not only the state, but also federal government have every right to interfere in the local schools. In fact, any legal authority of local schools to self govern stems directly from the state’s authority. This is unlike, for example, the states’ rights issue, where the states authority to govern comes from their individual sovereignty, and is not derived from authority of federal government. You are, of course, very much aware of this: indeed, this is seen clearly where you write “more or less”. You clearly agree that the state and federal governments have every right to interfere, and set up limits on what decisions the local government can make about its schools. Moreover, you agree that the state should only be getting involved in “deeply extreme cases”. Well, guess what: there is no objective way to specify what is “deeply extreme”. In fact, DeSantis and his supporters will tell you that the books being curated away are, in fact, “deeply extreme”. You are of course free to disagree, but that’s the point: your objection is not at all about the right of the state government to do the thing it is doing (you believe that the government should totally be able to do exactly what DeSantis has done), only about the contents of the decision, which is to say, whose ox is being gored. Why don’t we discuss that, instead of engaging in silly discussions about the extent and limits of governance, which in today’s America have been, for better or worse, definitively settled with practically zero chances of being changed any time soon?
  - jrm4 4y ago
    Apologies, but when someone presumes to tell me what I believe and is painfully wrong, there's really no point in continuing. Good luck elsewhere.
cmh89 4y ago
>There is absolutely nothing wrong with the state banning books from public schools. When it's entirely politically motivated, there is. >No sane person would object from banning literal hardcore pornography from school libraries. I Conflating Desantis culture war nonsense with actual pornography is a bad faith argument. >ndividual parents, of course, are free to disagree, and they can show their children whatever they want. However, the whole point of democracy is that the elected officials have mandate on behalf of the majority of the voters to exercise control over state institutions. If voters do not like what DeSantis is doing, they can vote in his opponent during next election. If Florida was still a democracy, I might agree with you. Desantis voter disenfranchisement and voter suppression programs have effectively ended that.
- xyzzyz 4y ago
  > When it's entirely politically motivated, there is. Banning books glorifying Nazism is also very much politically motivated. Do you think it would be wrong? Anyway, doing politically motivated things is the whole point of democracy. The entire idea of it is that we elect the government to do things on our behalf. It is absurd to suggest that government shouldn’t take “politically motivated” actions: that’s what we elect them to do. > If Florida was still a democracy, I might agree with you. Desantis voter disenfranchisement and voter suppression programs have effectively ended that. Please stop with the election denialism. Yeah, DeSantis totally stole the election, man.
- wonderwonder 4y ago
  "If Florida was still a democracy, I might agree with you. Desantis voter disenfranchisement and voter suppression programs have effectively ended that" Come on man you sound like Trump.

by xyzzyz 4y ago

jrm4 4y ago

This is painfully wrong. There is absolutely everything wrong with THE STATE banning books from public schools. The state's job is to set up and maintain a structure by which localities etc. can more-or-less self govern their methodology of education and handle things like content, and e.g. fire your hypothetical school person who's glorifying Nazism. And the actual state should only be getting involved in deeply extreme cases, if at all.

xyzzyz 4y ago
You are describing a theory of governance that has no bearing on the reality of today’s America. Over 20th century, it has been clearly and definitively established that not only the state, but also federal government have every right to interfere in the local schools. In fact, any legal authority of local schools to self govern stems directly from the state’s authority. This is unlike, for example, the states’ rights issue, where the states authority to govern comes from their individual sovereignty, and is not derived from authority of federal government. You are, of course, very much aware of this: indeed, this is seen clearly where you write “more or less”. You clearly agree that the state and federal governments have every right to interfere, and set up limits on what decisions the local government can make about its schools. Moreover, you agree that the state should only be getting involved in “deeply extreme cases”. Well, guess what: there is no objective way to specify what is “deeply extreme”. In fact, DeSantis and his supporters will tell you that the books being curated away are, in fact, “deeply extreme”. You are of course free to disagree, but that’s the point: your objection is not at all about the right of the state government to do the thing it is doing (you believe that the government should totally be able to do exactly what DeSantis has done), only about the contents of the decision, which is to say, whose ox is being gored. Why don’t we discuss that, instead of engaging in silly discussions about the extent and limits of governance, which in today’s America have been, for better or worse, definitively settled with practically zero chances of being changed any time soon?
- jrm4 4y ago
  Apologies, but when someone presumes to tell me what I believe and is painfully wrong, there's really no point in continuing. Good luck elsewhere.

cmh89 4y ago

>There is absolutely nothing wrong with the state banning books from public schools. When it's entirely politically motivated, there is. >No sane person would object from banning literal hardcore pornography from school libraries. I Conflating Desantis culture war nonsense with actual pornography is a bad faith argument. >ndividual parents, of course, are free to disagree, and they can show their children whatever they want. However, the whole point of democracy is that the elected officials have mandate on behalf of the majority of the voters to exercise control over state institutions. If voters do not like what DeSantis is doing, they can vote in his opponent during next election. If Florida was still a democracy, I might agree with you. Desantis voter disenfranchisement and voter suppression programs have effectively ended that.

xyzzyz 4y ago
> When it's entirely politically motivated, there is. Banning books glorifying Nazism is also very much politically motivated. Do you think it would be wrong? Anyway, doing politically motivated things is the whole point of democracy. The entire idea of it is that we elect the government to do things on our behalf. It is absurd to suggest that government shouldn’t take “politically motivated” actions: that’s what we elect them to do. > If Florida was still a democracy, I might agree with you. Desantis voter disenfranchisement and voter suppression programs have effectively ended that. Please stop with the election denialism. Yeah, DeSantis totally stole the election, man.
wonderwonder 4y ago
"If Florida was still a democracy, I might agree with you. Desantis voter disenfranchisement and voter suppression programs have effectively ended that" Come on man you sound like Trump.