4 ms·

WGA west has about 10k members, whole US has about 15k. (This is from Google, please correct me if I got the wrong number.) By contrast, there are over a millio

by dlkf 4y ago

WGA west has about 10k members, whole US has about 15k. (This is from Google, please correct me if I got the wrong number.) By contrast, there are over a million people building software. Will this model scale up two orders of magnitude?

thebradbain 4y ago
WGA is just one of many unions, but you’re right— getting into the “best” guilds is itself a process; but ostensibly, it’s to ensure that the guild keeps its prestige as a genuine body of talent. It’s a balancing act for sure, and I don’t know if tech wants to emulate everything exactly with the Hollywood guild system, but it’s worth taking inspiration from.
- dlkf 4y ago
  Would you trust unions over markets to determine which programmers are skilled? How would they determine that?
  - anon7725 4y ago
    Traditional guilds fostered apprenticeship, mentorship and relationships between practitioners that transcend firms/projects. Given that “the market” seems to have settled on LC as the only measure of skill I don’t think it’s far fetched to imagine that a guild system could be better.
    - dlkf 4y ago
      > Given that “the market” seems to have settled on LC as the only measure of skill That’s not true and I suspect you know it.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
  - thfuran 4y ago
    I'm not sure what you mean.
  - thebradbain 4y ago
    It’s a fine line, but I don’t see anyone saying the members of the Hollywood guild aren’t talented— it’s a (perhaps already too hard) battle just to get in it. However, just because you’re in the guild does not mean you have a job. Productions still have to hire and choose to work with you. Generally, if you don’t get work within sometime between 1-2 years you lose membership. If you’re not “skilled enough” for the minimum floor pay, then the studio or show has no obligation to hire you. Don’t see why that model can’t work for tech?
  - duped 4y ago
    The unions don't decide who gets hired for a project, only the set of terms should you hire someone from the union.
    - dlkf 4y ago
      But crucially, they also decide who is in the union.
  - mrzimmerman 4y ago
    Probably in the same way that companies go about determining it now: programming tests, certifications, diplomas, etc.
MrMetlHed 4y ago
Quick search suggests that United Food and Commercial Workers International Union has 1.3m members, so why not? And a union isn't always the best solution for some places, so it's easy for me to imagine smaller companies not having one while larger ones do. Or different unions for different situations and types of work. (edited to add: Obviously the UFCW is not the type of prestige guild the WGA is. Unionizing probably isn't always the best solution, but some amount of work in tech -- QA for example (https://www.theverge.com/2022/12/2/23489932/activision-blizzard-albany-qa-union https://www.theverge.com/2022/12/2/23489932/activision-blizz...) -- could be unionized under that type of system, while other employees become members of more powerful guilds that command higher salaries.)
- briffle 4y ago
  The other thing is, you don't need everyone covered. All the other grocers know that someone can just quit and go work at the grocery store down the road and get a certain level of pay and benefits, so they need to at a minimum, meet those same benefits to keep their employees. So it raises everyone's standard in an area.

by dlkf 4y ago

thebradbain 4y ago

WGA is just one of many unions, but you’re right— getting into the “best” guilds is itself a process; but ostensibly, it’s to ensure that the guild keeps its prestige as a genuine body of talent. It’s a balancing act for sure, and I don’t know if tech wants to emulate everything exactly with the Hollywood guild system, but it’s worth taking inspiration from.

dlkf 4y ago
Would you trust unions over markets to determine which programmers are skilled? How would they determine that?
- anon7725 4y ago
  Traditional guilds fostered apprenticeship, mentorship and relationships between practitioners that transcend firms/projects. Given that “the market” seems to have settled on LC as the only measure of skill I don’t think it’s far fetched to imagine that a guild system could be better.
  - dlkf 4y ago
    > Given that “the market” seems to have settled on LC as the only measure of skill That’s not true and I suspect you know it.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- thfuran 4y ago
  I'm not sure what you mean.
- thebradbain 4y ago
  It’s a fine line, but I don’t see anyone saying the members of the Hollywood guild aren’t talented— it’s a (perhaps already too hard) battle just to get in it. However, just because you’re in the guild does not mean you have a job. Productions still have to hire and choose to work with you. Generally, if you don’t get work within sometime between 1-2 years you lose membership. If you’re not “skilled enough” for the minimum floor pay, then the studio or show has no obligation to hire you. Don’t see why that model can’t work for tech?
- duped 4y ago
  The unions don't decide who gets hired for a project, only the set of terms should you hire someone from the union.
  - dlkf 4y ago
    But crucially, they also decide who is in the union.
- mrzimmerman 4y ago
  Probably in the same way that companies go about determining it now: programming tests, certifications, diplomas, etc.

MrMetlHed 4y ago

Quick search suggests that United Food and Commercial Workers International Union has 1.3m members, so why not? And a union isn't always the best solution for some places, so it's easy for me to imagine smaller companies not having one while larger ones do. Or different unions for different situations and types of work. (edited to add: Obviously the UFCW is not the type of prestige guild the WGA is. Unionizing probably isn't always the best solution, but some amount of work in tech -- QA for example (https://www.theverge.com/2022/12/2/23489932/activision-blizzard-albany-qa-union https://www.theverge.com/2022/12/2/23489932/activision-blizz...) -- could be unionized under that type of system, while other employees become members of more powerful guilds that command higher salaries.)

briffle 4y ago
The other thing is, you don't need everyone covered. All the other grocers know that someone can just quit and go work at the grocery store down the road and get a certain level of pay and benefits, so they need to at a minimum, meet those same benefits to keep their employees. So it raises everyone's standard in an area.