5 ms·

Free Software / Open Source: Getting Back to a Social Frame

24 points by p4bl0 4y ago

ergonaught 4y ago
Yes, what native English speakers hear is seldom what is meant, but I found it amusing to examine the definition of "free" here: https://www.dictionary.com/browse/free https://www.dictionary.com/browse/free The sense of "provided without payment" is the 11th definition, "without cost" is the 36th definition, both quite far from the leading definitions. The first 8 listed involve liberty and autonomy, for example.
abetusk 4y ago
This is why I use the term "libre". It's unfortunate that we have to import French words into English in this way as it sounds pretentious but at least it's getting closer to being unambiguous. I also tend to pair it with "free" as in "libre/free". I used to say "free/libre" until someone thought I was saying "free labor" because of the word ordering. I also found the terminology behind "free as in speech" vs. "free as in beer" so confusing. What did free beer have to do with anything? Why are you able to hear speech without cost but have to pay for beer? For some reason, I always found it more confusing then enlightening. Now, to clarify, I say "free as in freedom" vs "free as in gratis".
- stonemetal12 4y ago
  >I also found the terminology behind "free as in speech" vs. "free as in beer" so confusing. What did free beer have to do with anything? Maybe it is because of my US perspective, but I find the confusion around it confusing. Free speech being a constitutional right and the first entry in the bill of rights makes it the quintessential textbook example of libre in the US. If you aren't in the US and someone talks about "free speech" does it not refer to libre speech? Free in "Free beer" must imply no cost, because there is no lessening of the rules and responsibilities around alcohol consumption no matter how you acquire it. Are there places with different rules and responsibilities around alcohol consumption such that "free beer" might imply libre beer?
  - pjmlp 4y ago
    > If you aren't in the US and someone talks about "free speech" does it not refer to libre speech? Nope, there are limits to what one is allowed to say in public, regardless of how much someone feels entitled to it. No one forbids them per se, but then they should also be open to the idea of facing legal charges depending on what is being said.
  - abetusk 4y ago
    I think the confusion is "free as in beer". I guess the idea behind it is that your friends going out drinking will pay for your beer so you get the beer gratis. To anyone hearing the word "free as in beer", their first thought is that "beer is not free, I have to pay for it". Whereas the statement "free as in speech" is descriptive, the term "free as in beer" requires you to interpret the price of beer in the exact opposite way it's usually understood. I seem to remember a story about visiting hackers going out for drinks and the expectation was that the people they were visiting would pay for the drinks, but I can't find that story now. I was under the impression that "free as in beer" was a cultural idiom which, if true, would make it further understandable why people not familiar with hacker culture wouldn't have the context to make the "free as in beer" expression make sense.
- pengaru 4y ago
  > This is why I use the term "libre". It's unfortunate that we have to import French words into English in this way as it sounds pretentious but at least it's getting closer to being unambiguous. It's not like common English isn't chock full of French words already. Libre at least resembles liberty (case in point), which english-speakers fully understand. Spanish uses libre for free as well. Plus given today's marketing-speak dominated discourse, it's not even unusual to have a seemingly stylized variant of liberty naming something. So I'm ok with Libre substituting for Free as in free speech. At least it's not a Turbo badge on an EV's trunk...
aputsiak 4y ago
As if people aren't accustomed to free speech, free science, free people, free for all, and countless other examples where free refers to freedom. The basic assumption falls flat on the ground.

24 points by p4bl0 4y ago

Yes, what native English speakers hear is seldom what is meant, but I found it amusing to examine the definition of "free" here: https://www.dictionary.com/browse/free https://www.dictionary.com/browse/free The sense of "provided without payment" is the 11th definition, "without cost" is the 36th definition, both quite far from the leading definitions. The first 8 listed involve liberty and autonomy, for example.

abetusk 4y ago

This is why I use the term "libre". It's unfortunate that we have to import French words into English in this way as it sounds pretentious but at least it's getting closer to being unambiguous. I also tend to pair it with "free" as in "libre/free". I used to say "free/libre" until someone thought I was saying "free labor" because of the word ordering. I also found the terminology behind "free as in speech" vs. "free as in beer" so confusing. What did free beer have to do with anything? Why are you able to hear speech without cost but have to pay for beer? For some reason, I always found it more confusing then enlightening. Now, to clarify, I say "free as in freedom" vs "free as in gratis".

stonemetal12 4y ago
>I also found the terminology behind "free as in speech" vs. "free as in beer" so confusing. What did free beer have to do with anything? Maybe it is because of my US perspective, but I find the confusion around it confusing. Free speech being a constitutional right and the first entry in the bill of rights makes it the quintessential textbook example of libre in the US. If you aren't in the US and someone talks about "free speech" does it not refer to libre speech? Free in "Free beer" must imply no cost, because there is no lessening of the rules and responsibilities around alcohol consumption no matter how you acquire it. Are there places with different rules and responsibilities around alcohol consumption such that "free beer" might imply libre beer?
- pjmlp 4y ago
  > If you aren't in the US and someone talks about "free speech" does it not refer to libre speech? Nope, there are limits to what one is allowed to say in public, regardless of how much someone feels entitled to it. No one forbids them per se, but then they should also be open to the idea of facing legal charges depending on what is being said.
- abetusk 4y ago
  I think the confusion is "free as in beer". I guess the idea behind it is that your friends going out drinking will pay for your beer so you get the beer gratis. To anyone hearing the word "free as in beer", their first thought is that "beer is not free, I have to pay for it". Whereas the statement "free as in speech" is descriptive, the term "free as in beer" requires you to interpret the price of beer in the exact opposite way it's usually understood. I seem to remember a story about visiting hackers going out for drinks and the expectation was that the people they were visiting would pay for the drinks, but I can't find that story now. I was under the impression that "free as in beer" was a cultural idiom which, if true, would make it further understandable why people not familiar with hacker culture wouldn't have the context to make the "free as in beer" expression make sense.
pengaru 4y ago
> This is why I use the term "libre". It's unfortunate that we have to import French words into English in this way as it sounds pretentious but at least it's getting closer to being unambiguous. It's not like common English isn't chock full of French words already. Libre at least resembles liberty (case in point), which english-speakers fully understand. Spanish uses libre for free as well. Plus given today's marketing-speak dominated discourse, it's not even unusual to have a seemingly stylized variant of liberty naming something. So I'm ok with Libre substituting for Free as in free speech. At least it's not a Turbo badge on an EV's trunk...

aputsiak 4y ago

As if people aren't accustomed to free speech, free science, free people, free for all, and countless other examples where free refers to freedom. The basic assumption falls flat on the ground.