3 ms·

Science calls BS: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0146167216676480 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/014616721667648... If the day-to-d

Science calls BS: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0146167216676480 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/014616721667648... If the day-to-day isn't fun, it'll never get done.

hnthrowaway0315 4y ago
Trick: Put yourself into a situation that you have some pressure to do what you want to do but not necessarily always fun. That's why I always want to learn on work instead of opening all those projects without finishing any. Sadly most companies don't agree with me :) They always want to hire experienced players. Can't blame them though.
300bps 4y ago
Science calls BS That's an extreme watering down of a complex topic. Essentially the study you link is saying that PIC (Positive, Immediate, Certain) outcomes are stronger than PDU (Positive, Delayed, Uncertain) outcomes. Well, of course. Taking the inverse - a NIC (Negative, Immediate, Certain) outcome of putting your hand on a hot stove will quickly teach you to not put your hand on the stove. Compare this to cheating a bit on your taxes where the consequence is NDU (Negative, Delayed, Uncertain). Beyond that, I disagree with your premise that something must be immediately fun for it to get done. There is a lot of literature on this - I recommend highly, "Solving the Procrastination Puzzle".
- youssefabdelm 4y ago
  > That's an extreme watering down of a complex topic. Fair point. A person can force themselves... until they break. So in that sense it needn't be fun as long as you can finish the task before the breaking point. But there's a threshold beyond which the person cannot sustain the behavior. Because it's a form of consistent lying to oneself. A person's brain, on a moment-to-moment basis is trying to pick the 'optimal' choice. The 'optimal' is: most pleasure, least pain. If the most pleasure, least pain option is beneficial to you in the long-run, the "game" that we play of trying to convince ourselves to do something else disappears. Which diet will win in the long run: 1. One that tastes better than all available options (including any takeout, or delivery, ice cream, or restaurant you know of) 2. One that tastes worse My critique is with this flawed concept of "discipline" which to my mind translates to "forcing yourself" aka "lying to yourself for as long as possible"
  - 300bps 4y ago
    Which diet will win in the long run I understand what you are saying and acknowledge there is a lot of truth in it. I think though that your binary selection is too limiting that I'll describe with an example. In 2013 I had my routine annual physical and discovered that my triglycerides were about 250. Not crazy high but it made me concerned enough to do something about it. I stopped eating obvious refined sugar completely. I say that very specifically - for example, if there was refined sugar in bread I didn't care about it. But I stopped my once-per-day soda habit, stopped eating dessert, candy, etc. One year later my triglycerides were 113. Ten years later, I have not had a single soda. So I think at least one option you may have not considered is what I refer to as the "change your mindset" option. Consider an oversimplified list of options before us on the topic of dietary choices: 1. I will indulge my sweet tooth 2. I will deprive myself of sweets 3. I will change my mindset about sweets to "I don't eat that stuff." #1 is unhealthy. #2 (and I think this is your point) is not sustainable. #3 is healthy and positively changed my life. I'm not on a diet. I don't need to exercise that willpower muscle for the next two weeks and then it's scarf city. I just don't eat that stuff. And do you know what happened? I had two weeks of terrible cravings for soda and candy. It felt like a mild form of withdrawal. Then I just stopped caring about it. And fruit tasted sweeter. Everything tasted better - it was almost like a taste bud reset. I've experienced similar things with non-diet things as well.
- makeitdouble 4y ago
  > There is a lot of literature on this - I recommend highly, "Solving the Procrastination Puzzle". Looking at the book preview here: https://pdfroom.com/books/solving-the-procrastination-puzzle-a-concise-guide-to-strategies-for-change/eKRd6Y995Zp https://pdfroom.com/books/solving-the-procrastination-puzzle... > MARIA, A WORKING MOTHER of three young children, reaches the end of her day with lots left to do. […] She plans carefully, but kids’ illness, changes at the day care, and both her and her husband’s travel for work always seem to necessitate change in her plans and delays on some tasks. > These examples in Maria’s life should not be seen as procrastination Then 3 pages later > Everyone procrastinates. I believe this, and research has documented this in a number of different ways. In fact, I think that people who say that they have never procrastinated might also say that they have never told a lie or been rude to someone. hhmm…So, where does poor Maria fall into this ? And should the real lesson be, that the ultimate solution to procrastination is to become a working parent of 3 children ? I still skimmed most of the book, and it feels like it’s pointed at people that either aren’t actually convinced they should be doing some tasks, and/or can actually get by not doing them for a very long time without much actual consequences (there’s a passage about participants waiting for a week to do a report. If they have such leeway, I’m not sure why it matters they do it earlier than later…)
epolanski 4y ago
Odd, I went through 20 years of school and graduated twice with nothing but discipline and while not really having fun.
- aatd86 4y ago
  A take would be that you were motivated/incentivized. Discipline is what made you not fail. One can be motivated and still fail. Having fun is the best motivation still.
- makeitdouble 4y ago
  The “having fun” part will have different manifestations and mechanisms for different people. A different way to put it: we all have our kinks and weird feedback loops.
lumb63 4y ago
I see this as being in agreement with what the OP is saying. This study more or less says that people intrinsically have motivation, not discipline. Hence, as the OP says, a need to cultivate discipline. Also, saying “science calls BS” is incredibly reductionist. Science can say whatever it wants, but that doesn’t change that myself and many others engage in activities regularly that they do not enjoy to achieve ends that they value.
- youssefabdelm 4y ago
  > Also, saying “science calls BS” is incredibly reductionist. Science can say whatever it wants, but that doesn’t change that myself and many others engage in activities regularly that they do not enjoy to achieve ends that they value. That's fair. "Science might raise an eyebrow at this but it could still be wrong" may have been closer to the truth.
marginalia_nu 4y ago
Probably difficult to actually study this as there are cultural aspects. Most people haven't a particularly well-cultivated sense of discipline because they've grown up in a culture where this is seen as negative. You're seen as boring or even wasting your life if you don't indulge your impulses frequently enough. Missing out on having fun is seen as a very bad thing.
lanstin 4y ago
For myself, it is when I enjoy the tedious aspects of some work, I know I could do it as a job. There are always tedious aspects, and when it appeals to some inner compulsiveness (for me, I guess other people like bossing others around, and are suited to that sort of job) then I know I will be able to do well with the totality.

Science calls BS: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0146167216676480 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/014616721667648... If the day-to-day isn't fun, it'll never get done.

hnthrowaway0315 4y ago

Trick: Put yourself into a situation that you have some pressure to do what you want to do but not necessarily always fun. That's why I always want to learn on work instead of opening all those projects without finishing any. Sadly most companies don't agree with me :) They always want to hire experienced players. Can't blame them though.

300bps 4y ago

Science calls BS That's an extreme watering down of a complex topic. Essentially the study you link is saying that PIC (Positive, Immediate, Certain) outcomes are stronger than PDU (Positive, Delayed, Uncertain) outcomes. Well, of course. Taking the inverse - a NIC (Negative, Immediate, Certain) outcome of putting your hand on a hot stove will quickly teach you to not put your hand on the stove. Compare this to cheating a bit on your taxes where the consequence is NDU (Negative, Delayed, Uncertain). Beyond that, I disagree with your premise that something must be immediately fun for it to get done. There is a lot of literature on this - I recommend highly, "Solving the Procrastination Puzzle".

youssefabdelm 4y ago
> That's an extreme watering down of a complex topic. Fair point. A person can force themselves... until they break. So in that sense it needn't be fun as long as you can finish the task before the breaking point. But there's a threshold beyond which the person cannot sustain the behavior. Because it's a form of consistent lying to oneself. A person's brain, on a moment-to-moment basis is trying to pick the 'optimal' choice. The 'optimal' is: most pleasure, least pain. If the most pleasure, least pain option is beneficial to you in the long-run, the "game" that we play of trying to convince ourselves to do something else disappears. Which diet will win in the long run: 1. One that tastes better than all available options (including any takeout, or delivery, ice cream, or restaurant you know of) 2. One that tastes worse My critique is with this flawed concept of "discipline" which to my mind translates to "forcing yourself" aka "lying to yourself for as long as possible"
- 300bps 4y ago
  Which diet will win in the long run I understand what you are saying and acknowledge there is a lot of truth in it. I think though that your binary selection is too limiting that I'll describe with an example. In 2013 I had my routine annual physical and discovered that my triglycerides were about 250. Not crazy high but it made me concerned enough to do something about it. I stopped eating obvious refined sugar completely. I say that very specifically - for example, if there was refined sugar in bread I didn't care about it. But I stopped my once-per-day soda habit, stopped eating dessert, candy, etc. One year later my triglycerides were 113. Ten years later, I have not had a single soda. So I think at least one option you may have not considered is what I refer to as the "change your mindset" option. Consider an oversimplified list of options before us on the topic of dietary choices: 1. I will indulge my sweet tooth 2. I will deprive myself of sweets 3. I will change my mindset about sweets to "I don't eat that stuff." #1 is unhealthy. #2 (and I think this is your point) is not sustainable. #3 is healthy and positively changed my life. I'm not on a diet. I don't need to exercise that willpower muscle for the next two weeks and then it's scarf city. I just don't eat that stuff. And do you know what happened? I had two weeks of terrible cravings for soda and candy. It felt like a mild form of withdrawal. Then I just stopped caring about it. And fruit tasted sweeter. Everything tasted better - it was almost like a taste bud reset. I've experienced similar things with non-diet things as well.
makeitdouble 4y ago
> There is a lot of literature on this - I recommend highly, "Solving the Procrastination Puzzle". Looking at the book preview here: https://pdfroom.com/books/solving-the-procrastination-puzzle-a-concise-guide-to-strategies-for-change/eKRd6Y995Zp https://pdfroom.com/books/solving-the-procrastination-puzzle... > MARIA, A WORKING MOTHER of three young children, reaches the end of her day with lots left to do. […] She plans carefully, but kids’ illness, changes at the day care, and both her and her husband’s travel for work always seem to necessitate change in her plans and delays on some tasks. > These examples in Maria’s life should not be seen as procrastination Then 3 pages later > Everyone procrastinates. I believe this, and research has documented this in a number of different ways. In fact, I think that people who say that they have never procrastinated might also say that they have never told a lie or been rude to someone. hhmm…So, where does poor Maria fall into this ? And should the real lesson be, that the ultimate solution to procrastination is to become a working parent of 3 children ? I still skimmed most of the book, and it feels like it’s pointed at people that either aren’t actually convinced they should be doing some tasks, and/or can actually get by not doing them for a very long time without much actual consequences (there’s a passage about participants waiting for a week to do a report. If they have such leeway, I’m not sure why it matters they do it earlier than later…)

epolanski 4y ago

Odd, I went through 20 years of school and graduated twice with nothing but discipline and while not really having fun.

aatd86 4y ago
A take would be that you were motivated/incentivized. Discipline is what made you not fail. One can be motivated and still fail. Having fun is the best motivation still.
makeitdouble 4y ago
The “having fun” part will have different manifestations and mechanisms for different people. A different way to put it: we all have our kinks and weird feedback loops.

lumb63 4y ago

I see this as being in agreement with what the OP is saying. This study more or less says that people intrinsically have motivation, not discipline. Hence, as the OP says, a need to cultivate discipline. Also, saying “science calls BS” is incredibly reductionist. Science can say whatever it wants, but that doesn’t change that myself and many others engage in activities regularly that they do not enjoy to achieve ends that they value.

youssefabdelm 4y ago
> Also, saying “science calls BS” is incredibly reductionist. Science can say whatever it wants, but that doesn’t change that myself and many others engage in activities regularly that they do not enjoy to achieve ends that they value. That's fair. "Science might raise an eyebrow at this but it could still be wrong" may have been closer to the truth.

marginalia_nu 4y ago

Probably difficult to actually study this as there are cultural aspects. Most people haven't a particularly well-cultivated sense of discipline because they've grown up in a culture where this is seen as negative. You're seen as boring or even wasting your life if you don't indulge your impulses frequently enough. Missing out on having fun is seen as a very bad thing.

lanstin 4y ago

For myself, it is when I enjoy the tedious aspects of some work, I know I could do it as a job. There are always tedious aspects, and when it appeals to some inner compulsiveness (for me, I guess other people like bossing others around, and are suited to that sort of job) then I know I will be able to do well with the totality.