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> There is no product being sold The product is clearly the ability to exchange financial value friction-free and with no middle men or central authority. The

> There is no product being sold The product is clearly the ability to exchange financial value friction-free and with no middle men or central authority. The various crypto coins achieve this property quite well with various tradeoffs on speed, anonymity, etc.

jqpabc123 4y ago
with no middle men or central authority. The exchanges are both --- the middle men *and* the central authority. They set the "financial value" of crypto. They mint their own "stable coins" at will without any verifiable backing and use it to trade against their own "customers" --- because there is nothing to prevent it. And yes, I am aware of the peer-to-peer exchanges --- which provide no real, practical alternative but to more or less follow along with the prices set by centralized exchanges.
- danuker 4y ago
  You can trade with third-parties, and if you want a paper trail you could notarize the trade, without having to submit your data to a huge private centralized database. Two services I admire: https://localbitcoins.com/ https://localbitcoins.com/ https://bisq.network/ https://bisq.network/
- naasking 4y ago
  Exchanges are not necessary for crypto. Not sure why you're conflating them. Also, there is no central authority telling exchanges how they have to operate, that they have to collect certain kinds of data or regulate certain kinds of transactions (in theory). If you don't like an exchange's rules you can move to another or create your own fairly easily. By contrast, consider how difficult it would be to start a bank.
  - jqpabc123 4y ago
    Exchanges are not necessary for crypto. Yes they absolutely are. Without them, there would be no crypto *market* --- centralized or otherwise. Everyone turns to the exchanges to value their crypto --- even those doing peer-to-peer (DEX). Also, there is no central authority telling exchanges how they have to operate Exactly! In the absence thereof, they become the defacto "central authority" --- by the sheer weight of their trading volume and the fact that they mint stable coins which can be used to influence any trading.
    - naasking 4y ago
      > Everyone turns to the exchanges to value their crypto. Not everyone. And the fact that most turn to exchanges says nothing about crypto's dependence on them. If all exchanges were outlawed tomorrow Bitcoin would still not disappear. Furthermore, the existence of multiple exchanges already refutes your claim that there is a central authority, de facto or otherwise.
      - jqpabc123 4y ago
        Furthermore, the existence of multiple exchanges already refutes your claim Bitfinex and Binance control the market by sheer weight of their trading volume. The others have no choice but to follow their lead. If they don't, these "Big Two" will arbitrage against them and they have an unlimited supply of "stable coins" to work with.
  - zirgs 4y ago
    Yeah, I remember when cryptobros talked about self-contained crypto economy. In that ideal scenario exchanges aren't necessary. But 14 years have passed and nothing has come of it. Off-ramps are still necessary. Exchanges that deal with real money have to abide by rules and regulations of their jurisdiction. Governments can tell them what to do. Crypto exchanges that deal with crypto only can indeed hide from governments, but if they steal your money - there's nothing you can do.
    - jqpabc123 4y ago
      Off-ramps are still necessary. Sooner or later, everyone is faced with the necessity of interfacing with reality. You can't escape gravity (physical or financial) just because you don't like it or don't trust it. Gravity doesn't care what you like.
- msm_ 4y ago
  > And yes, I am aware of the peer-to-peer exchanges --- which provide no real, practical alternative but to follow along with the centralized ones. Why? Centralised exchanges are more convenient, but as you've said you can use a local p2p exchange. It will cost you more, and take more time, but you can. In comparison, you can't make a SEPA transfer without a bank.

jqpabc123 4y ago

with no middle men or central authority. The exchanges are both --- the middle men *and* the central authority. They set the "financial value" of crypto. They mint their own "stable coins" at will without any verifiable backing and use it to trade against their own "customers" --- because there is nothing to prevent it. And yes, I am aware of the peer-to-peer exchanges --- which provide no real, practical alternative but to more or less follow along with the prices set by centralized exchanges.

danuker 4y ago
You can trade with third-parties, and if you want a paper trail you could notarize the trade, without having to submit your data to a huge private centralized database. Two services I admire: https://localbitcoins.com/ https://localbitcoins.com/ https://bisq.network/ https://bisq.network/
naasking 4y ago
Exchanges are not necessary for crypto. Not sure why you're conflating them. Also, there is no central authority telling exchanges how they have to operate, that they have to collect certain kinds of data or regulate certain kinds of transactions (in theory). If you don't like an exchange's rules you can move to another or create your own fairly easily. By contrast, consider how difficult it would be to start a bank.
- jqpabc123 4y ago
  Exchanges are not necessary for crypto. Yes they absolutely are. Without them, there would be no crypto *market* --- centralized or otherwise. Everyone turns to the exchanges to value their crypto --- even those doing peer-to-peer (DEX). Also, there is no central authority telling exchanges how they have to operate Exactly! In the absence thereof, they become the defacto "central authority" --- by the sheer weight of their trading volume and the fact that they mint stable coins which can be used to influence any trading.
  - naasking 4y ago
    > Everyone turns to the exchanges to value their crypto. Not everyone. And the fact that most turn to exchanges says nothing about crypto's dependence on them. If all exchanges were outlawed tomorrow Bitcoin would still not disappear. Furthermore, the existence of multiple exchanges already refutes your claim that there is a central authority, de facto or otherwise.
    - jqpabc123 4y ago
      Furthermore, the existence of multiple exchanges already refutes your claim Bitfinex and Binance control the market by sheer weight of their trading volume. The others have no choice but to follow their lead. If they don't, these "Big Two" will arbitrage against them and they have an unlimited supply of "stable coins" to work with.
- zirgs 4y ago
  Yeah, I remember when cryptobros talked about self-contained crypto economy. In that ideal scenario exchanges aren't necessary. But 14 years have passed and nothing has come of it. Off-ramps are still necessary. Exchanges that deal with real money have to abide by rules and regulations of their jurisdiction. Governments can tell them what to do. Crypto exchanges that deal with crypto only can indeed hide from governments, but if they steal your money - there's nothing you can do.
  - jqpabc123 4y ago
    Off-ramps are still necessary. Sooner or later, everyone is faced with the necessity of interfacing with reality. You can't escape gravity (physical or financial) just because you don't like it or don't trust it. Gravity doesn't care what you like.
msm_ 4y ago
> And yes, I am aware of the peer-to-peer exchanges --- which provide no real, practical alternative but to follow along with the centralized ones. Why? Centralised exchanges are more convenient, but as you've said you can use a local p2p exchange. It will cost you more, and take more time, but you can. In comparison, you can't make a SEPA transfer without a bank.