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"crypto as a payment method" 1 BTC currently is 22,987 USD. "The 2023 Honda Civic has a base MSRP of $24,650" [1]. No sane person, i.e. person not having more

"crypto as a payment method" 1 BTC currently is 22,987 USD. "The 2023 Honda Civic has a base MSRP of $24,650" [1]. No sane person, i.e. person not having more money than they can count [2], wanting to buy a car would ever spend the 1 BTC today for a Honda Civic, maybe the 'market' will go up and they will be able to afford a 48K Mustang Mach-E, or maybe it will go really up and be able to afford a 250K Lucid Air Sapphire. Actually spending the crypto 'money' is irrational behaviour, from an economical standpoint: just wait a few months/years, maybe it will go up: crypto forces the users into typical pyramidal thinking, a forever delayed gratification. [1] https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/honda/civic https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/honda/civic [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_choice_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_choice_theory

hnuser847 4y ago
I’m not going to defend crypto, but this is a bad argument. One Satoshi (the smallest increment of Bitcoin) is currently worth $0.0002289.
- ly3xqhl8g9 4y ago
  Ok. So maybe you can accept as economically rational to spend a few Satoshis for a bagel. Then where do you draw the line where BTC (or the other cryptos) stops being an effective currency? 15K?, 10K?, 1K? Let's say you want to buy a computer: 1 ETH is currently 1,637 USD, one Macbook Pro 13 M2 is 1,300 USD. Aren't you an irrational economic agent if you spent the 1 ETH today instead of waiting a few months maybe ETH will be back at the 4.6K ATH, when you will be able to buy a MacBook Pro 16 with M2 Max?
naasking 4y ago
You could say the same about stocks, but clearly this isn't a failure mode. Sometimes people need to actually buy things.
- TimPC 4y ago
  The difference is stocks have a reliable basis for going up based on an underlying asset that generates wealth. Most crypto is backed by nothing, some is backed by other crypto which is also in the end nothing.
  - naasking 4y ago
    Generates what wealth? Dollar "wealth" which is also backed by nothing. There is no such thing as intrinsic value, value is only ever determined inter-subjectively. Crypto has value as long as people want it, just like every other asset or currency.
  - Cthulhu_ 4y ago
    > The difference is stocks have a reliable basis for going up based on an underlying asset that generates wealth. In theory, in practice it's a supply / demand game that can be manipulated by news, sentiment, and rich people. Tesla does not have the underlying asset that made its stock worth as much as it did. It is/was a small player in the car manufacturing world in terms of sales and profits etc, yet its stocks and the company was somehow worth more than all the other car manufacturers combined.
- ly3xqhl8g9 4y ago
  Yes, stocks are also an awful mechanism through which the East India Company fooled some "spice bros" to give them money for worthless papers. However, no Wall Street person will argue with a straight face if I want a bagel I just have to sell some BRK.A. One must stop once in a while and ask themselves: what are they are trying to achieve, do they really want to be an effector in maximizing the pain and suffering of the world through vapid technology.
  - naasking 4y ago
    > However, no Wall Street person will argue with a straight face if I want a bagel I just have to sell some BRK.A. That's exactly what you're doing when you buy something: trading an asset (dollars) that can appreciate in value in a savings account for some good you want or need right now.
SuoDuanDao 4y ago
It's a deflationary currency. I hear the country got into trouble with those 90 years ago, but if the only alternative is a hyperinflationary currency, the dynamics of a deflationary currency might be a danger worth approaching.
- TomGullen 4y ago
  Temporarily deflationary, when all Bitcoins are mined what happens next?
  - SuoDuanDao 4y ago
    presumably, a static supply in a growing(?) economy means it continues its deflationary dynamics.
    - TomGullen 4y ago
      And the miners would all shut down because no one's transacting with it
  - ly3xqhl8g9 4y ago
    If by some weird magic I had today all the BTCs forever locked in Nakamoto's wallet, currently around $23 billion, I would give them all away just to be able to live in 2140, the year the last BTC will be mined. So I guess BTC is actually a currency after all, haha.
- Cthulhu_ 4y ago
  It's not so much a deflationary currency as an unstable one; its value has gone from $100 (or even less, the charts don't go back that far) to over $60.000 and back to the $20.000 range. That's incredibly unstable and not something I'd willingly would choose as a currency.
EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 4y ago
Well, there is one strong reason to spend that BTC. You only have 70 years to do so.

hnuser847 4y ago

I’m not going to defend crypto, but this is a bad argument. One Satoshi (the smallest increment of Bitcoin) is currently worth $0.0002289.

ly3xqhl8g9 4y ago
Ok. So maybe you can accept as economically rational to spend a few Satoshis for a bagel. Then where do you draw the line where BTC (or the other cryptos) stops being an effective currency? 15K?, 10K?, 1K? Let's say you want to buy a computer: 1 ETH is currently 1,637 USD, one Macbook Pro 13 M2 is 1,300 USD. Aren't you an irrational economic agent if you spent the 1 ETH today instead of waiting a few months maybe ETH will be back at the 4.6K ATH, when you will be able to buy a MacBook Pro 16 with M2 Max?

naasking 4y ago

You could say the same about stocks, but clearly this isn't a failure mode. Sometimes people need to actually buy things.

TimPC 4y ago
The difference is stocks have a reliable basis for going up based on an underlying asset that generates wealth. Most crypto is backed by nothing, some is backed by other crypto which is also in the end nothing.
- naasking 4y ago
  Generates what wealth? Dollar "wealth" which is also backed by nothing. There is no such thing as intrinsic value, value is only ever determined inter-subjectively. Crypto has value as long as people want it, just like every other asset or currency.
- Cthulhu_ 4y ago
  > The difference is stocks have a reliable basis for going up based on an underlying asset that generates wealth. In theory, in practice it's a supply / demand game that can be manipulated by news, sentiment, and rich people. Tesla does not have the underlying asset that made its stock worth as much as it did. It is/was a small player in the car manufacturing world in terms of sales and profits etc, yet its stocks and the company was somehow worth more than all the other car manufacturers combined.
ly3xqhl8g9 4y ago
Yes, stocks are also an awful mechanism through which the East India Company fooled some "spice bros" to give them money for worthless papers. However, no Wall Street person will argue with a straight face if I want a bagel I just have to sell some BRK.A. One must stop once in a while and ask themselves: what are they are trying to achieve, do they really want to be an effector in maximizing the pain and suffering of the world through vapid technology.
- naasking 4y ago
  > However, no Wall Street person will argue with a straight face if I want a bagel I just have to sell some BRK.A. That's exactly what you're doing when you buy something: trading an asset (dollars) that can appreciate in value in a savings account for some good you want or need right now.

SuoDuanDao 4y ago

It's a deflationary currency. I hear the country got into trouble with those 90 years ago, but if the only alternative is a hyperinflationary currency, the dynamics of a deflationary currency might be a danger worth approaching.

TomGullen 4y ago
Temporarily deflationary, when all Bitcoins are mined what happens next?
- SuoDuanDao 4y ago
  presumably, a static supply in a growing(?) economy means it continues its deflationary dynamics.
  - TomGullen 4y ago
    And the miners would all shut down because no one's transacting with it
- ly3xqhl8g9 4y ago
  If by some weird magic I had today all the BTCs forever locked in Nakamoto's wallet, currently around $23 billion, I would give them all away just to be able to live in 2140, the year the last BTC will be mined. So I guess BTC is actually a currency after all, haha.
Cthulhu_ 4y ago
It's not so much a deflationary currency as an unstable one; its value has gone from $100 (or even less, the charts don't go back that far) to over $60.000 and back to the $20.000 range. That's incredibly unstable and not something I'd willingly would choose as a currency.

EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 4y ago

Well, there is one strong reason to spend that BTC. You only have 70 years to do so.