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> scam /skæm/ (noun): a clever and dishonest plan for making money This fits many projects in the cryptocurrency space. But what about the first successful cry

> scam /skæm/ (noun): a clever and dishonest plan for making money This fits many projects in the cryptocurrency space. But what about the first successful cryptocurrency Bitcoin? Was it dishonest? What about Ethereum, is it also dishonest? Seems like yes, there are lots of scams in cryptocurrency. But there is also projects that are not, so in the end, the title ends up being clickbait, which I (just like you) fell for...

JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> Bitcoin? Was it dishonest? Bitcoin per se, no. Bitcoin as practiced, yes. Broadly brushed, there are legitimate academic questions in crypto/blockchains/web3. The moment the work is remunerated for something other than its intellectual value, however, it's fair to revoke the benefit of doubt.
- capableweb 4y ago
  > Bitcoin per se, no. Bitcoin as practiced, yes. I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean with "Bitcoin as practiced". "Bitcoin as practiced" made Bitcoin into a scam while it wasn't one before "it was practiced"?
  - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    > don't understand what you mean with "Bitcoin as practiced" The paper and concept are fine. People marketing Bitcoin as an investment, et cetera, or more broadly selling anything related to it, are enabling a scam.
    - capableweb 4y ago
      Ok, so Bitcoin itself is not a scam, but people can use it to do scams? That makes sense and I'd agree with that. Author of the submission don't seem to think that's a useful distinction though, which seems slightly extreme.
      - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
        > Bitcoin itself is not a scam, but people can use it to do scams? I’d expand this to anyone using it to make money is perpetuating a scam.
        leadingthenet 4y ago
        I'm not sure why that should necessarily be the case. E.g. if a vendor sells a legitimate good and accepts bitcoin as an alternative mode of payment to fiat, and the buyer acquired those coins in a legitimate manner, in what way is that perpetuating a scam? Isn't that the original purpose outlined in the whitepaper?
  - zmxz 4y ago
    Bitcoin as practised is a Ponzi scheme (I say it's valued $5 and if you want to join my cool buddies you need to pay $5 and we paid $0, the next person needs to pay $10 and so on and the value disappears if we don't get new people to our cool clique). The way it works (place data in a file, distribute file to everyone, use cryptography to verify that data in file placed by $someone is valid) is great.
    - capableweb 4y ago
      If you want to sell me a Bitcoin with the promise that I'll be able to sell it for more in the future, then that'd be a scam. But if you just sell it to me without any promise of future profits, would it still be a scam in that scam? None the less, it does sound like Bitcoin itself is not a scam in this scenario, but rather there are scammers who use Bitcoin to perform their scams. Not that Bitcoin itself is a scam. Would that be correct?
      - zmxz 4y ago
        > But if you just sell it to me without any promise of future profits And the two of us got into the exchange how? I was silent about Bitcoin and you found out about it through ether? :) I made no hints whatsoever about it?
    - danuker 4y ago
      If Bitcoin is a Ponzi scheme, then fiat currencies are even worse. The central bank plainly admits a 2.5% inflation target. That means they capture all progress in technology that allows daily life to be cheaper, and on top of that dilutes the purchasing power a further 2.5% per year. Ever since the fiat system was implemented, the gap between the rich and poor has been increasing. https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/ https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/ Bitcoin is one way to side-step this debasement.
      - zmxz 4y ago
        > If Bitcoin is a Ponzi scheme, then fiat currencies are even worse. Fiat wasn't mentioned here, unless you want to argue that I purposely specified US dollars - I did so because of easy numbers. Just because one way of handling currency sucks, it doesn't mean it justifies crypto, which sucks but way worse (because it can be abused by entire population instead of several hundred governments). > Bitcoin is one way to side-step this debasement. It isn't. It's not being used for payments. People hold it (or, to be fully crypto-compatible - HODL). Its network is slow, we all know it's 7 TPS. It requires too much processing power. And the list goes on. It's being used as a Ponzi scheme, the difference between crypto and fiat is that regular mortals have access to scam too, not only the governments. You didn't say a word about how the value is being added to BTC, but I guess that's what your fiat comparison was about. I'm sorry, but you sound like regular crypto-bro who doesn't actually grasp how things work but thinks they do.
tootie 4y ago
I think it's hard to ascribe intent to Satoshi and it seems the Eth creators are sincere in their beliefs thus far. SBF also seemed sincere. I think that the author of the piece is lumping together acts of pure deception with acts of self-deception. Bitcoin may not be an explicit ploy by the creators to steal money but it's still a nonsense product destined to fail and leave everyone else holding the bag.
- TEP_Kim_Il_Sung 4y ago
  One of the nice things about crypto is that there is no bag. Bitcoin never moves, it sits firmly in a distributed blockchain.
  - tootie 4y ago
    I mean, it's an expression. If you own coins when they crash then you are "holding the bag". If you sold at the peak then you robbed everyone at the bottom.

JumpCrisscross 4y ago

> Bitcoin? Was it dishonest? Bitcoin per se, no. Bitcoin as practiced, yes. Broadly brushed, there are legitimate academic questions in crypto/blockchains/web3. The moment the work is remunerated for something other than its intellectual value, however, it's fair to revoke the benefit of doubt.

capableweb 4y ago
> Bitcoin per se, no. Bitcoin as practiced, yes. I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean with "Bitcoin as practiced". "Bitcoin as practiced" made Bitcoin into a scam while it wasn't one before "it was practiced"?
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > don't understand what you mean with "Bitcoin as practiced" The paper and concept are fine. People marketing Bitcoin as an investment, et cetera, or more broadly selling anything related to it, are enabling a scam.
  - capableweb 4y ago
    Ok, so Bitcoin itself is not a scam, but people can use it to do scams? That makes sense and I'd agree with that. Author of the submission don't seem to think that's a useful distinction though, which seems slightly extreme.
    - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
      > Bitcoin itself is not a scam, but people can use it to do scams? I’d expand this to anyone using it to make money is perpetuating a scam.
      - leadingthenet 4y ago
        I'm not sure why that should necessarily be the case. E.g. if a vendor sells a legitimate good and accepts bitcoin as an alternative mode of payment to fiat, and the buyer acquired those coins in a legitimate manner, in what way is that perpetuating a scam? Isn't that the original purpose outlined in the whitepaper?
- zmxz 4y ago
  Bitcoin as practised is a Ponzi scheme (I say it's valued $5 and if you want to join my cool buddies you need to pay $5 and we paid $0, the next person needs to pay $10 and so on and the value disappears if we don't get new people to our cool clique). The way it works (place data in a file, distribute file to everyone, use cryptography to verify that data in file placed by $someone is valid) is great.
  - capableweb 4y ago
    If you want to sell me a Bitcoin with the promise that I'll be able to sell it for more in the future, then that'd be a scam. But if you just sell it to me without any promise of future profits, would it still be a scam in that scam? None the less, it does sound like Bitcoin itself is not a scam in this scenario, but rather there are scammers who use Bitcoin to perform their scams. Not that Bitcoin itself is a scam. Would that be correct?
    - zmxz 4y ago
      > But if you just sell it to me without any promise of future profits And the two of us got into the exchange how? I was silent about Bitcoin and you found out about it through ether? :) I made no hints whatsoever about it?
  - danuker 4y ago
    If Bitcoin is a Ponzi scheme, then fiat currencies are even worse. The central bank plainly admits a 2.5% inflation target. That means they capture all progress in technology that allows daily life to be cheaper, and on top of that dilutes the purchasing power a further 2.5% per year. Ever since the fiat system was implemented, the gap between the rich and poor has been increasing. https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/ https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/ Bitcoin is one way to side-step this debasement.
    - zmxz 4y ago
      > If Bitcoin is a Ponzi scheme, then fiat currencies are even worse. Fiat wasn't mentioned here, unless you want to argue that I purposely specified US dollars - I did so because of easy numbers. Just because one way of handling currency sucks, it doesn't mean it justifies crypto, which sucks but way worse (because it can be abused by entire population instead of several hundred governments). > Bitcoin is one way to side-step this debasement. It isn't. It's not being used for payments. People hold it (or, to be fully crypto-compatible - HODL). Its network is slow, we all know it's 7 TPS. It requires too much processing power. And the list goes on. It's being used as a Ponzi scheme, the difference between crypto and fiat is that regular mortals have access to scam too, not only the governments. You didn't say a word about how the value is being added to BTC, but I guess that's what your fiat comparison was about. I'm sorry, but you sound like regular crypto-bro who doesn't actually grasp how things work but thinks they do.

tootie 4y ago

I think it's hard to ascribe intent to Satoshi and it seems the Eth creators are sincere in their beliefs thus far. SBF also seemed sincere. I think that the author of the piece is lumping together acts of pure deception with acts of self-deception. Bitcoin may not be an explicit ploy by the creators to steal money but it's still a nonsense product destined to fail and leave everyone else holding the bag.

TEP_Kim_Il_Sung 4y ago
One of the nice things about crypto is that there is no bag. Bitcoin never moves, it sits firmly in a distributed blockchain.
- tootie 4y ago
  I mean, it's an expression. If you own coins when they crash then you are "holding the bag". If you sold at the peak then you robbed everyone at the bottom.