8 ms·

OP laments the lack of diversity at FOSDEM. At least here we have an example of age diversity :-). But maybe a "Kids FOSDEM" is not a bad idea at all?!

rjzzleep 4y ago
OP doesn't really understand that outside of the US people are more than black, white and Asian. It's not that long ago that the chairman of one of the most powerful German parties asked the population to report people if they hear them speak Arabic. In the US whether you're Arab, Turkish, Greek, Iranian, etc. unless you're one of the darker Arabs they're all seen as white Caucasian to the average Joe. There was a report not long ago that people with Turkish names are half as likely to get a job in Germany. So the average Joe wouldn't understand that places such as FOSDEM are very diverse and very welcoming to any one of those backgrounds. There was a blog post complaining about the lack of diversity at FOSDEM a couple of years back. Everyone was thrown in the "white Caucasian male" bucket. But that's less a testimony of FOSDEMs diversity and more one of the ignorance of a certain demographic that likes to look at the world through its own lens.
- bonzini 4y ago
  Why do you believe that OP is American (he's not - https://diego.codes/about/ https://diego.codes/about/)? Besides, he mentions gender diversity more than ethnicity.
- woodruffw 4y ago
  The OP isn’t American, so they presumably understand the things you’re saying. But there’s a disconnect here: the OP highlights poor gender representation, not any of the things you’ve said.
radicalbyte 4y ago
About 95% of the visitors were men aged from 30-60 and a large proportion of those (including yours truly) could do with dropping a few kilo's. I don't particularly care about the gender / race / size of people presenting or visiting as long as everyone is treated fairly and properly. Which seemed the case. Diversity of thought - that is extremely important - and that was on display to a point. I was really disappointed to not see anything from my favoured platform - C# - which would represent conceptual diversity. Which is a shame because the more that we normalise OSS in that ecosystem the better.
- fignews 4y ago
  Ended up speaking to a C# dev from the Italian speaking part of Switzerland but obviously not a common language.
  - radicalbyte 4y ago
    It's one of the major languages, just not so much in the OSS community because of the culture of Microsoft hate. Which made sense back then - Microsoft (and Apple) both earned that for what they did to Amiga. However Oracle are currently much worse but you never hear people hating on Java for that (they hate on Java because change is glacial, which is a symptom of Oracle).
- college_physics 4y ago
  > Diversity of thought - that is extremely important The beauty of gender and ethnic diversity is that it help with diversity of thought as well. From motivating tech for more diverse sets of applications, to making it more inclusive in terms of localization, removing subtle biases in implementations (e.g. music tools that do not reflect purely western music traditions - to mention something concrete) Its a tough nut to crack, as we don't need token initiatives but ideas that are authentic in the OSS context and can undo the entrenched society-wide lack of inclusion for certain groups.
  - 0x445442 4y ago
    Society doesn’t need equal representation in every field of endeavor. It only needs to remove institutional barriers to entry. I’d argue those barriers really don’t exist now and that lamenting over group preferences is a fool’s errand. I don’t see those lamenting over the lack of “diversity” in STEM having any issue with the lack of diversity in the NBA.
    - rtpg 4y ago
      So if it’s 0% it’s fine? What’s the line? What’s the number where it’s not weird? There are plenty of practical barriers in IT tech events, evidenced in having to constantly remind men at events that this professional event isn’t a mixer so chill with the PUA behavior, to stop assuming every woman they meet here at the event is in sales or advertising, to not doing events at strip clubs… (I’m assuming you’re male) how many times have you had to disengage from a professional group conversation because one person is just constantly hitting on you? Ask your women coworkers how often this happens. Everyone is different and should be judged as such, but I’ve been in community events where this sort of behavior isn’t rampant and it’s a million times better. And yeah, turns out that having a more representative organizational community does wonders for that. I don’t know the FOSDEM environment, and I imagine it’s much better than the norm on this front.
0x445442 4y ago
Yeah, it’s a racist comment because it assumes one has to have such and such skin color or such and such gender to be different. There’s an infinite number of characteristics that make us individuals, skin color and gender are just two.
zxspectrum1982 4y ago
I have organized devrooms at FOSDEM for almost 15 years. That thing about "lack of diversity" is bullshit, plain and simple. If women, or gays, or trans, or people with disabilities, don't submit talks, then they will not get talks accepted. And I'm not going to chase them begging them to submit talks or insert some talk just because they belong of a "minority". That would be unfair to the people that took the time and effort to actually submit a proper talk. Oh, by the way, I have no way of knowing whether someone is gay, trans, disabled or whatever because all I see is a 1-2 paragraph bio and a 2-3 paragraph proposal and title. Stop blaming yourself for being a white man.
- spencerchubb 4y ago
  I would really prefer to be at a diverse conference. To make the conference experience as good as possible, maybe it would be wise to actively seek out diverse speakers if they are not applying.
  - guntherhermann 4y ago
    FOSDEM is a diverse conference, it's great. If you've never been, go and then criticise if you don't like it. Don't rely on second hand information to make up your mind.
  - zxspectrum1982 4y ago
    No, it wouldn't be. If those "diverse people" want to be at FOSDEM, they will need to follow the same rules everybody follows.
  - JuniorBalleg 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - spencerchubb 4y ago
      A reason why I dislike homogeneous environments is because I feel like the odd one out. If most people in a room are of the same demographic, and I don't fit that demographic, then I feel like an outsider. It is hard to interpret your question as sincere when you imply that people want diversity so they can pick up women.

rjzzleep 4y ago

OP doesn't really understand that outside of the US people are more than black, white and Asian. It's not that long ago that the chairman of one of the most powerful German parties asked the population to report people if they hear them speak Arabic. In the US whether you're Arab, Turkish, Greek, Iranian, etc. unless you're one of the darker Arabs they're all seen as white Caucasian to the average Joe. There was a report not long ago that people with Turkish names are half as likely to get a job in Germany. So the average Joe wouldn't understand that places such as FOSDEM are very diverse and very welcoming to any one of those backgrounds. There was a blog post complaining about the lack of diversity at FOSDEM a couple of years back. Everyone was thrown in the "white Caucasian male" bucket. But that's less a testimony of FOSDEMs diversity and more one of the ignorance of a certain demographic that likes to look at the world through its own lens.

bonzini 4y ago
Why do you believe that OP is American (he's not - https://diego.codes/about/ https://diego.codes/about/)? Besides, he mentions gender diversity more than ethnicity.
woodruffw 4y ago
The OP isn’t American, so they presumably understand the things you’re saying. But there’s a disconnect here: the OP highlights poor gender representation, not any of the things you’ve said.

radicalbyte 4y ago

About 95% of the visitors were men aged from 30-60 and a large proportion of those (including yours truly) could do with dropping a few kilo's. I don't particularly care about the gender / race / size of people presenting or visiting as long as everyone is treated fairly and properly. Which seemed the case. Diversity of thought - that is extremely important - and that was on display to a point. I was really disappointed to not see anything from my favoured platform - C# - which would represent conceptual diversity. Which is a shame because the more that we normalise OSS in that ecosystem the better.

fignews 4y ago
Ended up speaking to a C# dev from the Italian speaking part of Switzerland but obviously not a common language.
- radicalbyte 4y ago
  It's one of the major languages, just not so much in the OSS community because of the culture of Microsoft hate. Which made sense back then - Microsoft (and Apple) both earned that for what they did to Amiga. However Oracle are currently much worse but you never hear people hating on Java for that (they hate on Java because change is glacial, which is a symptom of Oracle).
college_physics 4y ago
> Diversity of thought - that is extremely important The beauty of gender and ethnic diversity is that it help with diversity of thought as well. From motivating tech for more diverse sets of applications, to making it more inclusive in terms of localization, removing subtle biases in implementations (e.g. music tools that do not reflect purely western music traditions - to mention something concrete) Its a tough nut to crack, as we don't need token initiatives but ideas that are authentic in the OSS context and can undo the entrenched society-wide lack of inclusion for certain groups.
- 0x445442 4y ago
  Society doesn’t need equal representation in every field of endeavor. It only needs to remove institutional barriers to entry. I’d argue those barriers really don’t exist now and that lamenting over group preferences is a fool’s errand. I don’t see those lamenting over the lack of “diversity” in STEM having any issue with the lack of diversity in the NBA.
  - rtpg 4y ago
    So if it’s 0% it’s fine? What’s the line? What’s the number where it’s not weird? There are plenty of practical barriers in IT tech events, evidenced in having to constantly remind men at events that this professional event isn’t a mixer so chill with the PUA behavior, to stop assuming every woman they meet here at the event is in sales or advertising, to not doing events at strip clubs… (I’m assuming you’re male) how many times have you had to disengage from a professional group conversation because one person is just constantly hitting on you? Ask your women coworkers how often this happens. Everyone is different and should be judged as such, but I’ve been in community events where this sort of behavior isn’t rampant and it’s a million times better. And yeah, turns out that having a more representative organizational community does wonders for that. I don’t know the FOSDEM environment, and I imagine it’s much better than the norm on this front.

0x445442 4y ago

Yeah, it’s a racist comment because it assumes one has to have such and such skin color or such and such gender to be different. There’s an infinite number of characteristics that make us individuals, skin color and gender are just two.

zxspectrum1982 4y ago

I have organized devrooms at FOSDEM for almost 15 years. That thing about "lack of diversity" is bullshit, plain and simple. If women, or gays, or trans, or people with disabilities, don't submit talks, then they will not get talks accepted. And I'm not going to chase them begging them to submit talks or insert some talk just because they belong of a "minority". That would be unfair to the people that took the time and effort to actually submit a proper talk. Oh, by the way, I have no way of knowing whether someone is gay, trans, disabled or whatever because all I see is a 1-2 paragraph bio and a 2-3 paragraph proposal and title. Stop blaming yourself for being a white man.

spencerchubb 4y ago
I would really prefer to be at a diverse conference. To make the conference experience as good as possible, maybe it would be wise to actively seek out diverse speakers if they are not applying.
- guntherhermann 4y ago
  FOSDEM is a diverse conference, it's great. If you've never been, go and then criticise if you don't like it. Don't rely on second hand information to make up your mind.
- zxspectrum1982 4y ago
  No, it wouldn't be. If those "diverse people" want to be at FOSDEM, they will need to follow the same rules everybody follows.
- JuniorBalleg 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - spencerchubb 4y ago
    A reason why I dislike homogeneous environments is because I feel like the odd one out. If most people in a room are of the same demographic, and I don't fit that demographic, then I feel like an outsider. It is hard to interpret your question as sincere when you imply that people want diversity so they can pick up women.