4 ms·

I get the feeling that ARM and RISC platforms are going to screw around for so long that by the time you can buy a system with one in them Intel and AMD will ha

I get the feeling that ARM and RISC platforms are going to screw around for so long that by the time you can buy a system with one in them Intel and AMD will have caught up on performance per watt and made them unneeded.

ZiiS 4y ago
ARM already massively outsell x86?
- vlakreeh 4y ago
  They mean in the markets that x86 is leading in, like desktop, mobile laptops, and server. The server market is particularly interesting as while ARM is gaining market share, it's mostly because Intel is losing market share because their products haven't been up to par in terms of performance per watt that AMD can provide.
  - ZiiS 4y ago
    They may not yet be dominant in those markets; but "by the time you can buy a system" is a bit of a stretch given you can walk out of a Apple store with a strong contender for the best Laptop or spin up the highest performance/$ EC2 A1 instances today.
  - retrac 4y ago
    For about 10 years after the introduction of microprocessors, legacy minicomputer platforms continued to sell on the high end. PCs were too small and slow and not enough IO. But the economy of scale made PC hardware incredibly cheap and it rapidly improved. They got bigger. Eventually, server-sized, competing with minicomputers, which did not have the backing of an architecture used at massive scale. Most servers ended up being based on up-scaled PC hardware, and the underlying architecture of servers (such as x86 processors) ended up reflecting that. I think the same may happen with smartphones/TVs/tablets/etc. Billions of these devices are sold each year, compared to perhaps tens of millions of high-end desktops or servers.
rwmj 4y ago
You can buy an Arm system right now, or rent one in AWS (and have been able to for years).
- jordiburgos 4y ago
  Out of curiosity, which ARM systems can you buy for a desktop?
  - dagmx 4y ago
    Apple has several Arm based desktops available today: the Mac Mini, Mac Studio and iMac
  - LeFantome 4y ago
    I am guessing you are well aware of M1 and M2 laptops and Mac Minis. I would argue that the latter answers your question. While I am no expert on the space, I know that Microsoft has launched their own mini-like ARM PC. There must be others. If you are thinking of a tower though, there may in fact not be any. That is more of a statement about this desktop market than the RISC one though. https://cdn.statcdn.com/Statistic/270000/272595-blank-355.png https://cdn.statcdn.com/Statistic/270000/272595-blank-355.pn... Plum forgot about the iMac.
shaunsingh0207 4y ago
I wouldn't say arm is screwing around, apple silicon is no joke. The thing is that the M1/M2/etc. cpus are incredibly good partly because of their raw cpu performance, but also because of the big/little design and the extra niceties (amx, etc.) If you're going to add your own instructions anyways, then why go risc-v over arm?
- M2Ys4U 4y ago
  Apple, being one of ARM's cofounders, have incredibly favourable licensing rights as well as incredibly deep pockets. Their success with M1 and M2 aren't hugely generalisable.
dagmx 4y ago
But I can go out today and buy a computer with an ARM chip in it today, very easily. Even for RISC, you can buy some boards but I assume those don’t count. But at a regular consumer level, there’s tons of ARM computers in use right now, even if they’re restricted to only a few companies who make them.
astrange 4y ago
ARMv8/v9 is significantly more secure than x86, performance isn't the only factor. RISC-V I don't know about, but having fixed length instructions is theoretically safer.

ZiiS 4y ago

ARM already massively outsell x86?

vlakreeh 4y ago
They mean in the markets that x86 is leading in, like desktop, mobile laptops, and server. The server market is particularly interesting as while ARM is gaining market share, it's mostly because Intel is losing market share because their products haven't been up to par in terms of performance per watt that AMD can provide.
- ZiiS 4y ago
  They may not yet be dominant in those markets; but "by the time you can buy a system" is a bit of a stretch given you can walk out of a Apple store with a strong contender for the best Laptop or spin up the highest performance/$ EC2 A1 instances today.
- retrac 4y ago
  For about 10 years after the introduction of microprocessors, legacy minicomputer platforms continued to sell on the high end. PCs were too small and slow and not enough IO. But the economy of scale made PC hardware incredibly cheap and it rapidly improved. They got bigger. Eventually, server-sized, competing with minicomputers, which did not have the backing of an architecture used at massive scale. Most servers ended up being based on up-scaled PC hardware, and the underlying architecture of servers (such as x86 processors) ended up reflecting that. I think the same may happen with smartphones/TVs/tablets/etc. Billions of these devices are sold each year, compared to perhaps tens of millions of high-end desktops or servers.

rwmj 4y ago

You can buy an Arm system right now, or rent one in AWS (and have been able to for years).

jordiburgos 4y ago
Out of curiosity, which ARM systems can you buy for a desktop?
- dagmx 4y ago
  Apple has several Arm based desktops available today: the Mac Mini, Mac Studio and iMac
- LeFantome 4y ago
  I am guessing you are well aware of M1 and M2 laptops and Mac Minis. I would argue that the latter answers your question. While I am no expert on the space, I know that Microsoft has launched their own mini-like ARM PC. There must be others. If you are thinking of a tower though, there may in fact not be any. That is more of a statement about this desktop market than the RISC one though. https://cdn.statcdn.com/Statistic/270000/272595-blank-355.png https://cdn.statcdn.com/Statistic/270000/272595-blank-355.pn... Plum forgot about the iMac.

shaunsingh0207 4y ago

I wouldn't say arm is screwing around, apple silicon is no joke. The thing is that the M1/M2/etc. cpus are incredibly good partly because of their raw cpu performance, but also because of the big/little design and the extra niceties (amx, etc.) If you're going to add your own instructions anyways, then why go risc-v over arm?

M2Ys4U 4y ago
Apple, being one of ARM's cofounders, have incredibly favourable licensing rights as well as incredibly deep pockets. Their success with M1 and M2 aren't hugely generalisable.

dagmx 4y ago

But I can go out today and buy a computer with an ARM chip in it today, very easily. Even for RISC, you can buy some boards but I assume those don’t count. But at a regular consumer level, there’s tons of ARM computers in use right now, even if they’re restricted to only a few companies who make them.

astrange 4y ago

ARMv8/v9 is significantly more secure than x86, performance isn't the only factor. RISC-V I don't know about, but having fixed length instructions is theoretically safer.