4 ms·

> The same with 'kinderbijslag', 'zorgtoeslag' and lots of other of these social catchnet essentials. They're made into a massive meatgrinder and one little mis

by em500 4y ago

> The same with 'kinderbijslag', 'zorgtoeslag' and lots of other of these social catchnet essentials. They're made into a massive meatgrinder and one little mistake and you'll be paying back the original assistance + some contrived fine, possibly much higher than the original amount you received. There is quite some administration around applying for welfare ('bijstand') and also around daycare subsidy (mostly because it requires correct hours registration, and parents tend to change the hours quite a bit due to holidays, sickness, etc). But the administration around specifically 'kinderbijslag' (child benefits), 'zorgtoeslag' (health care subsidy) and 'huurtoeslag' (rent subsidy) are minimal to almost non-existent.

Tijdreiziger 4y ago
> But the administration around specifically 'kinderbijslag' (child benefits), 'zorgtoeslag' (health care subsidy) and 'huurtoeslag' (rent subsidy) are minimal to almost non-existent. I disagree. The ‘toeslagen’ system is specifically set up such that if you start earning more partway through the year, you might have to pay months of benefits payments back (since those payments were really just a ‘voorschot’, and your actual right to them is based on your annual salary, which changes if you get a better job). If you forget to update your salary (which might happen to ordinary people for any number of reasons), you might additionally be slapped with a fine. I understand that on HN, we are self-selecting for people who understand the rules and how the system works. In real life, though, many people (especially those with a low income) are not well-versed in bureaucratic rules. Consider, for example, that 1 in 9 (!) Dutch are functionally illiterate (laaggeletterd) [1]. The system is just too complex for them, and it’s no wonder many choose to forgo toeslagen when they do have a right to them. [1] https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/laaggeletterdheid https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/laaggeletterdheid
- jacquesm 4y ago
  Thank you for your comments in this thread. The disconnect between theory and practice in these threads (and others) where it concerns people a little lower on the earnings and education totem pole is quite shocking. It's almost as if people on HN as a rule are isolated from the real world to an extent that they come off as utterly devoid of empathy with those that aren't earning as much money and who did not have the same degree of education as they themselves do.
  - em500 4y ago
    I grew up in the Netherlands as a "niet-Westers allochtoon", with 2 (not "functionally" but utterly) illiterate parents. I have spent significant shares of my life in both the bottom and top quintiles of the income distribution, and I still have friends in both segments today (including one who is currently waiting for compensation in the Toeslagenaffaire). I think I can claim a broader perspective on this issue than most posters here.
- arp242 4y ago
  About ten years ago one of my Somali neighbours (refugee) would literally ask random people on the street to help him understand government letters; he'd just talk to people passing by. He spoke some Dutch and some English, but neither very well. I told him he can just ring my door but he never did. That said, for health care and rent it's not that hard, or at least it wasn't when I was eligible for it >10 years ago. For most regular people with a labour contract the tax service already has all your details and you don't really need to do anything. They also do try to use simple and plain language when possible (I remember that specifically as I felt it was too simple at times). Child care seems different, which is why the entire scandal is mostly about that; I have no experience with that. And maybe the rent/health benefits changed in the meanwhile. The biggest caveat is that you may have to return the money if you earned too much as you mentioned (which also happened to me because I worked slightly too much overtime; I would have been better off not getting paid for that :-/).

by em500 4y ago

Tijdreiziger 4y ago

> But the administration around specifically 'kinderbijslag' (child benefits), 'zorgtoeslag' (health care subsidy) and 'huurtoeslag' (rent subsidy) are minimal to almost non-existent. I disagree. The ‘toeslagen’ system is specifically set up such that if you start earning more partway through the year, you might have to pay months of benefits payments back (since those payments were really just a ‘voorschot’, and your actual right to them is based on your annual salary, which changes if you get a better job). If you forget to update your salary (which might happen to ordinary people for any number of reasons), you might additionally be slapped with a fine. I understand that on HN, we are self-selecting for people who understand the rules and how the system works. In real life, though, many people (especially those with a low income) are not well-versed in bureaucratic rules. Consider, for example, that 1 in 9 (!) Dutch are functionally illiterate (laaggeletterd) [1]. The system is just too complex for them, and it’s no wonder many choose to forgo toeslagen when they do have a right to them. [1] https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/laaggeletterdheid https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/laaggeletterdheid

jacquesm 4y ago
Thank you for your comments in this thread. The disconnect between theory and practice in these threads (and others) where it concerns people a little lower on the earnings and education totem pole is quite shocking. It's almost as if people on HN as a rule are isolated from the real world to an extent that they come off as utterly devoid of empathy with those that aren't earning as much money and who did not have the same degree of education as they themselves do.
- em500 4y ago
  I grew up in the Netherlands as a "niet-Westers allochtoon", with 2 (not "functionally" but utterly) illiterate parents. I have spent significant shares of my life in both the bottom and top quintiles of the income distribution, and I still have friends in both segments today (including one who is currently waiting for compensation in the Toeslagenaffaire). I think I can claim a broader perspective on this issue than most posters here.
arp242 4y ago
About ten years ago one of my Somali neighbours (refugee) would literally ask random people on the street to help him understand government letters; he'd just talk to people passing by. He spoke some Dutch and some English, but neither very well. I told him he can just ring my door but he never did. That said, for health care and rent it's not that hard, or at least it wasn't when I was eligible for it >10 years ago. For most regular people with a labour contract the tax service already has all your details and you don't really need to do anything. They also do try to use simple and plain language when possible (I remember that specifically as I felt it was too simple at times). Child care seems different, which is why the entire scandal is mostly about that; I have no experience with that. And maybe the rent/health benefits changed in the meanwhile. The biggest caveat is that you may have to return the money if you earned too much as you mentioned (which also happened to me because I worked slightly too much overtime; I would have been better off not getting paid for that :-/).