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Even though it's very appealing to think we didn't do wrong here and the blame is with the fraudsters, this take is too apologetic towards the government and to

Even though it's very appealing to think we didn't do wrong here and the blame is with the fraudsters, this take is too apologetic towards the government and too harsh towards the folks who got their kids taken away. Personally, I blame a longer standing issue of politics designing laws that can not be executed as intended, instead of racism. However, these politics hit minority groups as these are most affected by such legislation. I do believe racism did seriously accelerate the issues here. In the EU, we have a weberian bureaucracy, this basically compiles to that the institutions such as the belastingdienst will get legislation and execute it as "efficiently" as possible. However, in recent (±15-20y) politics it is expected that the institutions will actually think / care / morally judge the tasks they are supposed to execute. That just doesn't work, period. A system such as that is implemented in the US, where a change of political party means the replacement of the bureaucracy / government staffing. Either we: 1. Start politicizing our institutions and stop asking the bureaucracy to do task X as efficiently as possible. Or, 2. We make sure that the laws are not written with just the intention in mind, but executionability (and what-if-applied-to-the-extreme) as well. Unfortunately I don't really see any party talking about institutional change at the moment for the new elections, it's mostly clout chasing in their programmes. That said, the election is for the PS.

throwaway8689 4y ago
Service is 503 right now. How did fraud escalate to kids being taken away?
- nibbleshifter 4y ago
  Its not uncommon: if parents are charged (not even convicted) with fraud, or other criminal offenses, the social services automatically start to become involved - and often will default to "doing something" to "protect" the child from its "criminal parents". Its a problem of incentives and metrics for the social service caseworkers - if they do not act, and "something happens", they get the book thrown at them. If they do act, and there was no risk, well it was better to be "safe" than "sorry" right? Basically there's zero negative outcome for the case worker or social service system when they break up a family or take a child into care. There are negative outcomes if they fail to do so.
- roel_v 4y ago
  It largely didn't, despite the huge media outcry here that tries to make it seem as if children were taken away because their parents committed fraud. It's simply that there is large covariance between people being poor (and/or having other markers that make them susceptible to being swept up in this sometimes overzealous enforcement of the law) and being unfit parents in other ways (being unable to provide a roof over children's heads, unsafe/violent living conditions etc.) This angle is taboo though to the point where recording data that could show this relationship is forbidden by child protection authorities. There probably are/were cases where the clawing back of previously paid out benefits pushed parents into territory where the circumstances for having their children taken away could develop. However there is little reason to suspect that out of all those who were involved in this and had their children taken away, had those children taken away because of that involvement - i.e. the '1100' number mentioned above.
vasco 4y ago
I can assure you 100% that having inefficient public services and institutions is not the solution for these cases, in my home country of Portugal we are very good at having slow and inefficient public services but outcomes are not much better. Also your number 2 is "people should predict the bad outcomes of the laws they write", which just sounds like "get good" but for lawmakers.
- redeeman 4y ago
  the slower they are, the less people they can hurt. The absolute best thing any government can do for their people is to go on an all expenses paid vacation to fiji, and stay there FOREVER. would suck for fiji, but be a new utopian era of prosperity here

throwaway8689 4y ago

Service is 503 right now. How did fraud escalate to kids being taken away?

nibbleshifter 4y ago
Its not uncommon: if parents are charged (not even convicted) with fraud, or other criminal offenses, the social services automatically start to become involved - and often will default to "doing something" to "protect" the child from its "criminal parents". Its a problem of incentives and metrics for the social service caseworkers - if they do not act, and "something happens", they get the book thrown at them. If they do act, and there was no risk, well it was better to be "safe" than "sorry" right? Basically there's zero negative outcome for the case worker or social service system when they break up a family or take a child into care. There are negative outcomes if they fail to do so.
roel_v 4y ago
It largely didn't, despite the huge media outcry here that tries to make it seem as if children were taken away because their parents committed fraud. It's simply that there is large covariance between people being poor (and/or having other markers that make them susceptible to being swept up in this sometimes overzealous enforcement of the law) and being unfit parents in other ways (being unable to provide a roof over children's heads, unsafe/violent living conditions etc.) This angle is taboo though to the point where recording data that could show this relationship is forbidden by child protection authorities. There probably are/were cases where the clawing back of previously paid out benefits pushed parents into territory where the circumstances for having their children taken away could develop. However there is little reason to suspect that out of all those who were involved in this and had their children taken away, had those children taken away because of that involvement - i.e. the '1100' number mentioned above.

vasco 4y ago

I can assure you 100% that having inefficient public services and institutions is not the solution for these cases, in my home country of Portugal we are very good at having slow and inefficient public services but outcomes are not much better. Also your number 2 is "people should predict the bad outcomes of the laws they write", which just sounds like "get good" but for lawmakers.

redeeman 4y ago
the slower they are, the less people they can hurt. The absolute best thing any government can do for their people is to go on an all expenses paid vacation to fiji, and stay there FOREVER. would suck for fiji, but be a new utopian era of prosperity here