4 ms·

> people were marked as "fraudulent" over simple banal mistakes or misunderstandings, and that people's benefits were not only stopped, they also had to return

> people were marked as "fraudulent" over simple banal mistakes or misunderstandings, and that people's benefits were not only stopped, they also had to return all previous benefits, often with a fine added Those who are fortunate enough not to rely on benefits may not realize it, but if you look at the amount of bureaucracy surrounding benefits, it becomes clear that this problem permeates the entire system. If you rely on benefits, you are treated with suspicion by default (by design).

jacquesm 4y ago
Exactly. The whole system is rigged against you to the point that people that can avoid the bureaucracy will do so because they are well aware that even the slightest mistake can have huge consequences, and as a result many people that have right to this kind of assistance will forego it. So on paper people have rights and all kinds of assistance, in practice they may well shy away from it because they are too scared, and those tend to be the people that need it most (I'm personally aware of several such cases). The same with 'kinderbijslag', 'zorgtoeslag' and lots of other of these social catchnet essentials. They're made into a massive meatgrinder and one little mistake and you'll be paying back the original assistance + some contrived fine, possibly much higher than the original amount you received.
- throwaway2037 4y ago
  In some countries, there are social services (gov't or non-profit) that will assist people to apply for these programmes correctly. Does the same exist in Nederlands for these essential social benefits? My point: A lot of these benefits help children (directly or indirectly), who, in my humble opinion, deserve extra-special treatment, as they do not control their financial circumstances.
  - em500 4y ago
    Parent's point are highly exaggerated, see my sibling comment. For children born in the Netherlands to parents with a valid resident permit, there is close to zero administration involved. (I can go into exact details if interested.) It's of course more difficult for the newly immigrated and the undocumented, but that's the case in practically every country in the world and the Netherlands is probably not any worse than other developed countries in that regard.
    - throwaway2037 4y ago
      Thank you to clarify. These types of comments are important to provide much needed nuance.
      - jacquesm 4y ago
        Just one small problem: the comment is wrong in important ways and shows a fair amount of disconnect between their knowledge of these systems and the practical implications. For one example: a child living abroad with one parent whilst the other half is living in the Netherlands has theoretically as much right to that support as one living in NL, but in practice the hoops they have to jump through + the risk of having to pay back the money increased with some arbitrary (but substantial) fine is so large that many people in that situation end up foregoing the aid. It all works well when you are on the happy path, but if you are even a little bit outside of the 70% case ('normal') then the system will work against you in all kinds of unpredictable ways. And some of those ways would have you labeled a fraudster, even if you do your utmost to play by the rules. And finally: the government itself doesn't know what the rules really are so if you call one of their hotlines you may well get faulty advice that will eventually cause you to be labeled a fraudster.
- em500 4y ago
  > The same with 'kinderbijslag', 'zorgtoeslag' and lots of other of these social catchnet essentials. They're made into a massive meatgrinder and one little mistake and you'll be paying back the original assistance + some contrived fine, possibly much higher than the original amount you received. There is quite some administration around applying for welfare ('bijstand') and also around daycare subsidy (mostly because it requires correct hours registration, and parents tend to change the hours quite a bit due to holidays, sickness, etc). But the administration around specifically 'kinderbijslag' (child benefits), 'zorgtoeslag' (health care subsidy) and 'huurtoeslag' (rent subsidy) are minimal to almost non-existent.
  - Tijdreiziger 4y ago
    > But the administration around specifically 'kinderbijslag' (child benefits), 'zorgtoeslag' (health care subsidy) and 'huurtoeslag' (rent subsidy) are minimal to almost non-existent. I disagree. The ‘toeslagen’ system is specifically set up such that if you start earning more partway through the year, you might have to pay months of benefits payments back (since those payments were really just a ‘voorschot’, and your actual right to them is based on your annual salary, which changes if you get a better job). If you forget to update your salary (which might happen to ordinary people for any number of reasons), you might additionally be slapped with a fine. I understand that on HN, we are self-selecting for people who understand the rules and how the system works. In real life, though, many people (especially those with a low income) are not well-versed in bureaucratic rules. Consider, for example, that 1 in 9 (!) Dutch are functionally illiterate (laaggeletterd) [1]. The system is just too complex for them, and it’s no wonder many choose to forgo toeslagen when they do have a right to them. [1] https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/laaggeletterdheid https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/laaggeletterdheid
    - jacquesm 4y ago
      Thank you for your comments in this thread. The disconnect between theory and practice in these threads (and others) where it concerns people a little lower on the earnings and education totem pole is quite shocking. It's almost as if people on HN as a rule are isolated from the real world to an extent that they come off as utterly devoid of empathy with those that aren't earning as much money and who did not have the same degree of education as they themselves do.
Roark66 4y ago
>Those who are fortunate enough not to rely on benefits may not realize it, but if you look at the amount of bureaucracy surrounding benefits, it becomes clear that this problem permeates the entire system. If you rely on benefits, you are treated with suspicion by default (by design). Exactly, and that is why I'll always bring up the only example of a benefit system that doesn't suffer all those beaurocratic nightmares. Polish child support (so called 500+) is a benefit for everyone that has a child(or children). It is 500pln (a it over 100eur) per child per month. It has been genius to give it to everyone. Minimal beaurocraticy was required as the state already has a record of children and parents. Fraud is minimal and it eradicated child poverty in few months. There are still a lot of people hurt very deeply that "rich people get it too". Most people don't care, and it's goals are accomplished regardless. The cost is comparable with similar income-weighted benefits in other countries. Edit:To clarify. Isn't current Polish gov right wing? Such things only happen in PL :-) That a right wing gov. brings a new benefit and the left is up in arms (because it has no income applicability). Now 8 years later the left has kind of accepted it was a good idea, but in the beginning they were very much against it.
- sofixa 4y ago
  > Edit:To clarify. Isn't current Polish gov right wing? Such things only happen in PL :-) That a right wing gov. brings a new benefit and the left is up in arms (because it has no income applicability). Now 8 years later the left has kind of accepted it was a good idea, but in the beginning they were very much against it. This is why left/right wing don't always make sense in today's political climate. A radar/pizza chart (with the different categories - economic, social, ecological, etc.) is more appropriate than a slider but that doesn't provide for easy labels. A party can be right-wing, but pro-green stuff (renewables, decarbonisation, etc.) which isn't usually associated with right-wing politics. And of course populism makes it so that any party can implement policies which are widely accepted (such as giving money for children) regardless of (nominal) party colours.
- xorcist 4y ago
  > There are still a lot of people hurt very deeply that "rich people get it too" This is the difference between a social insurance system and benefits. The former is much easier to reason about, and therefore can have simpler rules. Nobody complains that "rich people gets pensions too" because of course they do. They pay taxes like everyone else. This is well proven, and perhaps most well known, in the Nordic countries. When people treat certain measures as rights and not handouts, couples can plan their lives accordingly and manage both qualified educations and children.

jacquesm 4y ago

Exactly. The whole system is rigged against you to the point that people that can avoid the bureaucracy will do so because they are well aware that even the slightest mistake can have huge consequences, and as a result many people that have right to this kind of assistance will forego it. So on paper people have rights and all kinds of assistance, in practice they may well shy away from it because they are too scared, and those tend to be the people that need it most (I'm personally aware of several such cases). The same with 'kinderbijslag', 'zorgtoeslag' and lots of other of these social catchnet essentials. They're made into a massive meatgrinder and one little mistake and you'll be paying back the original assistance + some contrived fine, possibly much higher than the original amount you received.

throwaway2037 4y ago
In some countries, there are social services (gov't or non-profit) that will assist people to apply for these programmes correctly. Does the same exist in Nederlands for these essential social benefits? My point: A lot of these benefits help children (directly or indirectly), who, in my humble opinion, deserve extra-special treatment, as they do not control their financial circumstances.
- em500 4y ago
  Parent's point are highly exaggerated, see my sibling comment. For children born in the Netherlands to parents with a valid resident permit, there is close to zero administration involved. (I can go into exact details if interested.) It's of course more difficult for the newly immigrated and the undocumented, but that's the case in practically every country in the world and the Netherlands is probably not any worse than other developed countries in that regard.
  - throwaway2037 4y ago
    Thank you to clarify. These types of comments are important to provide much needed nuance.
    - jacquesm 4y ago
      Just one small problem: the comment is wrong in important ways and shows a fair amount of disconnect between their knowledge of these systems and the practical implications. For one example: a child living abroad with one parent whilst the other half is living in the Netherlands has theoretically as much right to that support as one living in NL, but in practice the hoops they have to jump through + the risk of having to pay back the money increased with some arbitrary (but substantial) fine is so large that many people in that situation end up foregoing the aid. It all works well when you are on the happy path, but if you are even a little bit outside of the 70% case ('normal') then the system will work against you in all kinds of unpredictable ways. And some of those ways would have you labeled a fraudster, even if you do your utmost to play by the rules. And finally: the government itself doesn't know what the rules really are so if you call one of their hotlines you may well get faulty advice that will eventually cause you to be labeled a fraudster.
em500 4y ago
> The same with 'kinderbijslag', 'zorgtoeslag' and lots of other of these social catchnet essentials. They're made into a massive meatgrinder and one little mistake and you'll be paying back the original assistance + some contrived fine, possibly much higher than the original amount you received. There is quite some administration around applying for welfare ('bijstand') and also around daycare subsidy (mostly because it requires correct hours registration, and parents tend to change the hours quite a bit due to holidays, sickness, etc). But the administration around specifically 'kinderbijslag' (child benefits), 'zorgtoeslag' (health care subsidy) and 'huurtoeslag' (rent subsidy) are minimal to almost non-existent.
- Tijdreiziger 4y ago
  > But the administration around specifically 'kinderbijslag' (child benefits), 'zorgtoeslag' (health care subsidy) and 'huurtoeslag' (rent subsidy) are minimal to almost non-existent. I disagree. The ‘toeslagen’ system is specifically set up such that if you start earning more partway through the year, you might have to pay months of benefits payments back (since those payments were really just a ‘voorschot’, and your actual right to them is based on your annual salary, which changes if you get a better job). If you forget to update your salary (which might happen to ordinary people for any number of reasons), you might additionally be slapped with a fine. I understand that on HN, we are self-selecting for people who understand the rules and how the system works. In real life, though, many people (especially those with a low income) are not well-versed in bureaucratic rules. Consider, for example, that 1 in 9 (!) Dutch are functionally illiterate (laaggeletterd) [1]. The system is just too complex for them, and it’s no wonder many choose to forgo toeslagen when they do have a right to them. [1] https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/laaggeletterdheid https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/laaggeletterdheid
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    Thank you for your comments in this thread. The disconnect between theory and practice in these threads (and others) where it concerns people a little lower on the earnings and education totem pole is quite shocking. It's almost as if people on HN as a rule are isolated from the real world to an extent that they come off as utterly devoid of empathy with those that aren't earning as much money and who did not have the same degree of education as they themselves do.

Roark66 4y ago

>Those who are fortunate enough not to rely on benefits may not realize it, but if you look at the amount of bureaucracy surrounding benefits, it becomes clear that this problem permeates the entire system. If you rely on benefits, you are treated with suspicion by default (by design). Exactly, and that is why I'll always bring up the only example of a benefit system that doesn't suffer all those beaurocratic nightmares. Polish child support (so called 500+) is a benefit for everyone that has a child(or children). It is 500pln (a it over 100eur) per child per month. It has been genius to give it to everyone. Minimal beaurocraticy was required as the state already has a record of children and parents. Fraud is minimal and it eradicated child poverty in few months. There are still a lot of people hurt very deeply that "rich people get it too". Most people don't care, and it's goals are accomplished regardless. The cost is comparable with similar income-weighted benefits in other countries. Edit:To clarify. Isn't current Polish gov right wing? Such things only happen in PL :-) That a right wing gov. brings a new benefit and the left is up in arms (because it has no income applicability). Now 8 years later the left has kind of accepted it was a good idea, but in the beginning they were very much against it.

sofixa 4y ago
> Edit:To clarify. Isn't current Polish gov right wing? Such things only happen in PL :-) That a right wing gov. brings a new benefit and the left is up in arms (because it has no income applicability). Now 8 years later the left has kind of accepted it was a good idea, but in the beginning they were very much against it. This is why left/right wing don't always make sense in today's political climate. A radar/pizza chart (with the different categories - economic, social, ecological, etc.) is more appropriate than a slider but that doesn't provide for easy labels. A party can be right-wing, but pro-green stuff (renewables, decarbonisation, etc.) which isn't usually associated with right-wing politics. And of course populism makes it so that any party can implement policies which are widely accepted (such as giving money for children) regardless of (nominal) party colours.
xorcist 4y ago
> There are still a lot of people hurt very deeply that "rich people get it too" This is the difference between a social insurance system and benefits. The former is much easier to reason about, and therefore can have simpler rules. Nobody complains that "rich people gets pensions too" because of course they do. They pay taxes like everyone else. This is well proven, and perhaps most well known, in the Nordic countries. When people treat certain measures as rights and not handouts, couples can plan their lives accordingly and manage both qualified educations and children.