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Software bloat really is an epidemic. As a web developer of 20+ years it's a source of constant frustration and sadness for me. Seriously, your app does not ne

Software bloat really is an epidemic. As a web developer of 20+ years it's a source of constant frustration and sadness for me. Seriously, your app does not need to be an app; it should be a website. And seriously, your six-page website with slideshow and photo gallery does not need a React-Angular-Vue hybrid frontend, Firebase logging, analytics, local storage, or any of the other 75 JavaScript files served from eight different external domains. I have an iPad Air 2 lying around. It's ridiculous how slow websites are on that, what is [/was] a decent piece of hardware from 2015. Even attempting to load the YouTube home page - never mind playing a video - is basically impossible. There's just no reason for it. It's fucking ridiculous.

JKCalhoun 4y ago
Generally agree with your points, but prefer apps over web sites. My IDE, text editor, paint programs, etc. better not require the internet to function. I'm preferring offline more and more.
- stolenmerch 4y ago
  Most people generally don't use their phone or mobile device for these tasks, so an installable application makes sense. I think what OP is talking about is this phenomenon of needing an installed app taking up storage space just for fairly simple tasks the web can handle just fine. Most of the time the installed apps require internet to properly function anyway.
  - JKCalhoun 4y ago
    Yes, you're correct about tasks that need the internet. And yet, while I hate Instagram asking me to use their app when their web site is more than adequate, I am beginning to wonder if there was an offline utility to Instagram. Like, perhaps I could prepare and enqueue a post or two offline and when there is connectivity — up it goes. That would be the only reason I would prefer their app over their site. But I think a lot of apps just sort of sayonara if there is no internet. Obviously browsers do....
    - locustous 4y ago
      You can build offline first web sites/apps, the tech is all there. But it takes more thought and planning up front or tons of work to bolt it on. The payoff for doing it is unclear even if it provides a much better experience for users 3% of the time when network access is nil or fuzzy.
- chrismcb 4y ago
  But if it is a webcentric app, which most are. I mean things that basically need the web, online shopping, up-to-date statistics (like sports) forums, social media. I personally prefer thicker clients for somethings. But a lot of those things are better off as a website.
  - JKCalhoun 4y ago
    I agree. (No, Amazon I don't want to use your app!) I guess social media and the like are getting a lot less important to me so I am focusing on them less and less.
noobermin 4y ago
>And seriously, your six-page website with slideshow and photo gallery does not need a React-Angular-Vue hybrid frontend, Firebase logging, analytics, local storage, or any of the other 75 JavaScript files served from eight different external domains. As a web developer, can you tell us why this happens, and how do we stop it? I see no market reason for it, it certainly doesn't make your business make more money, it feels much more like groupthink in the industry and chasing hype.
- colechristensen 4y ago
  If you build it, devs will come. People want to use new tech and any interesting feature finds users. New things tend to never be less complex than old things, and unless the devs experience the pain of things being slow, they’ll keep building in bloat (i.e. as long as things run well on their new several thousand dollar macbooks)
  - noobermin 4y ago
    >People want to use new tech and any interesting feature finds users. No user cares about the front end framework you use unless such a choice affects performance though. That's my point, it's something developers enjoy, but users really do not care about.
- wolfi1 4y ago
  not the OP, but I guess much of the software or the sites are shipped when "good enough", not "when optimal", nobody pays you for optimizing the page or the app for speed, when it's fast enough on their iPhone 14
- missedthecue 4y ago
  Because it looks better. No one except the HN crowd likes pulling up a site and seeing static HTML.
  - noobermin 4y ago
    That's a bit of an extreme and that isn't what I or anyone else in OP was saying was the only alternative for a six page web app. There is definitely a space between plain HTML and the "hybrid Angular-React-Vue frontend[0]" that doesn't require a huge number of js frameworks to render six pages. [0] yes even I Mr. scientist know that's a joke, but don't think it's too far off.
jesterson 4y ago
> And seriously, your six-page website with slideshow and photo gallery does not need a React-Angular-Vue hybrid frontend, Firebase logging, analytics, local storage, or any of the other 75 JavaScript files served from eight different external domains. Damn, where I can find developers like you? :) It seems like a dying breed :) Every developer I come across tries to sell me technology he/she is familiar with instead of looking at problem and making simple solution work. Like you have said, we don't need Angular/Vue where WordPress works. We don't need Python/Anaconda where simple php script will do. We don't need some ridiculous node based thread management where Linux cronjobs would perfectly do.
- pjmlp 4y ago
  We are, mostly educated on the old ways of development, approaching 50y over here.
- flippinburgers 4y ago
  I am "old school" as well. And yes we are a dying breed which depresses me.
pchangr 4y ago
I’m so in line with you. I explicitly made my website load as little crap as possible for that reason. I gave up on browsing the web in my iPad for that reason. Nowadays, I basically use it as an overpowered kindle. I download content.. and read or play it in my iPad. It’s seriously depressing. Every time someone tries to sell me some “you need X tech in your website”.. I send them to http://berkshirehathaway.com http://berkshirehathaway.com

JKCalhoun 4y ago

Generally agree with your points, but prefer apps over web sites. My IDE, text editor, paint programs, etc. better not require the internet to function. I'm preferring offline more and more.

stolenmerch 4y ago
Most people generally don't use their phone or mobile device for these tasks, so an installable application makes sense. I think what OP is talking about is this phenomenon of needing an installed app taking up storage space just for fairly simple tasks the web can handle just fine. Most of the time the installed apps require internet to properly function anyway.
- JKCalhoun 4y ago
  Yes, you're correct about tasks that need the internet. And yet, while I hate Instagram asking me to use their app when their web site is more than adequate, I am beginning to wonder if there was an offline utility to Instagram. Like, perhaps I could prepare and enqueue a post or two offline and when there is connectivity — up it goes. That would be the only reason I would prefer their app over their site. But I think a lot of apps just sort of sayonara if there is no internet. Obviously browsers do....
  - locustous 4y ago
    You can build offline first web sites/apps, the tech is all there. But it takes more thought and planning up front or tons of work to bolt it on. The payoff for doing it is unclear even if it provides a much better experience for users 3% of the time when network access is nil or fuzzy.
chrismcb 4y ago
But if it is a webcentric app, which most are. I mean things that basically need the web, online shopping, up-to-date statistics (like sports) forums, social media. I personally prefer thicker clients for somethings. But a lot of those things are better off as a website.
- JKCalhoun 4y ago
  I agree. (No, Amazon I don't want to use your app!) I guess social media and the like are getting a lot less important to me so I am focusing on them less and less.

noobermin 4y ago

colechristensen 4y ago
If you build it, devs will come. People want to use new tech and any interesting feature finds users. New things tend to never be less complex than old things, and unless the devs experience the pain of things being slow, they’ll keep building in bloat (i.e. as long as things run well on their new several thousand dollar macbooks)
- noobermin 4y ago
  >People want to use new tech and any interesting feature finds users. No user cares about the front end framework you use unless such a choice affects performance though. That's my point, it's something developers enjoy, but users really do not care about.
wolfi1 4y ago
not the OP, but I guess much of the software or the sites are shipped when "good enough", not "when optimal", nobody pays you for optimizing the page or the app for speed, when it's fast enough on their iPhone 14
missedthecue 4y ago
Because it looks better. No one except the HN crowd likes pulling up a site and seeing static HTML.
- noobermin 4y ago
  That's a bit of an extreme and that isn't what I or anyone else in OP was saying was the only alternative for a six page web app. There is definitely a space between plain HTML and the "hybrid Angular-React-Vue frontend[0]" that doesn't require a huge number of js frameworks to render six pages. [0] yes even I Mr. scientist know that's a joke, but don't think it's too far off.

jesterson 4y ago

> And seriously, your six-page website with slideshow and photo gallery does not need a React-Angular-Vue hybrid frontend, Firebase logging, analytics, local storage, or any of the other 75 JavaScript files served from eight different external domains. Damn, where I can find developers like you? :) It seems like a dying breed :) Every developer I come across tries to sell me technology he/she is familiar with instead of looking at problem and making simple solution work. Like you have said, we don't need Angular/Vue where WordPress works. We don't need Python/Anaconda where simple php script will do. We don't need some ridiculous node based thread management where Linux cronjobs would perfectly do.

pjmlp 4y ago
We are, mostly educated on the old ways of development, approaching 50y over here.
flippinburgers 4y ago
I am "old school" as well. And yes we are a dying breed which depresses me.

pchangr 4y ago

I’m so in line with you. I explicitly made my website load as little crap as possible for that reason. I gave up on browsing the web in my iPad for that reason. Nowadays, I basically use it as an overpowered kindle. I download content.. and read or play it in my iPad. It’s seriously depressing. Every time someone tries to sell me some “you need X tech in your website”.. I send them to http://berkshirehathaway.com http://berkshirehathaway.com