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There is no alternative license text that could protect against something like this if the UK courts really want cases like this to proceed to trial. The proble

by not2b 4y ago

There is no alternative license text that could protect against something like this if the UK courts really want cases like this to proceed to trial. The problem is not the MIT license, so suggestions for alternative license texts aren't really relevant. The issue seems to be: some crank claims he lost a lot of money and he wants to somehow force the Bitcoin developers to get him his money back. If judges don't understand the technical issues, they can punt and say "let's have a trial to work this out", ignoring how expensive this will be. edited to add "claims he" based on a comment

globalreset 4y ago
Didn't loose any money. He is lying he ever had them. Multiple judges in multiple cases identifies his forgeries and lies. He is a serious fraud, but has some deep money behind him, so he can bully people via legal system.
- simonebrunozzi 4y ago
  You mean Laanwj, the author of the post? Can you provide more details? Edit: I see that you were referring to Wright, not to Laanwj.
nullc 4y ago
It's not entirely clear to me that improvements to the license text couldn't help. For example, increasing its strength to an indemnification might have been effective here (at the very least it would put us in a good position to start demanding that he pay the cost of our defense right out of the gate). It's somewhat common for commercial click-wrap agreements to include indemnifications now, but it probably shouldn't be-- they're potentially unfair and over-powered which is why I haven't tried my hand at drafting language. But you're right that the license isn't the primary problem as they can't do something about an excessively dysfunctional legal system. The UK courts already have a pretty bad reputation internationally in other areas, such as in abusing them for defamation lawsuits resulting in US legislative action to block them (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPEECH_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPEECH_Act ).
musicale 4y ago
Seems like a good idea to sort this out. And of course if volunteer open source developers are found to be liable, I imagine commercial open and closed source developers (Microsoft, Google, Apple, etc.) will be liable for immense damages as well, so that will be interesting.
- csomar 4y ago
  This will only apply to the UK? If you are a developer in US soil and you made an MIT OSS, I don’t think someone from Singapore can sue you in the US based on UK law?
  - nullc 4y ago
    It depends on the jurisdictions in question. The degree of enforcability differs across pairs and depends on the specifics of the case and the nature of the judgements. But even where enforcability is low, which we believe it would be in this case, having a foreign judgement against you is a bad thing, particularly one from a major jurisdiction. As I explained in other comments-- even if you believe/hope it would be unenforceable it can still be unwise to ignore foreign litigation because you won't get a change to fight the case on its merits later should it turn out to be a problem. Perhaps if you were facing a likely unenforceable foreign case that you were sure to lose then you might be best off ignoring it.
  - User23 4y ago
    I’m not a lawyer, but I do know that commercial treaties are a thing so maybe they can? I do vaguely recall some handwringing over treaty regimes like WIPO and WTO so maybe there’s something in place that would expose US nationals to enforcement here? I bet the lawyer who could answer that question has an hefty hourly rate.

by not2b 4y ago

globalreset 4y ago

Didn't loose any money. He is lying he ever had them. Multiple judges in multiple cases identifies his forgeries and lies. He is a serious fraud, but has some deep money behind him, so he can bully people via legal system.

simonebrunozzi 4y ago
You mean Laanwj, the author of the post? Can you provide more details? Edit: I see that you were referring to Wright, not to Laanwj.

nullc 4y ago

It's not entirely clear to me that improvements to the license text couldn't help. For example, increasing its strength to an indemnification might have been effective here (at the very least it would put us in a good position to start demanding that he pay the cost of our defense right out of the gate). It's somewhat common for commercial click-wrap agreements to include indemnifications now, but it probably shouldn't be-- they're potentially unfair and over-powered which is why I haven't tried my hand at drafting language. But you're right that the license isn't the primary problem as they can't do something about an excessively dysfunctional legal system. The UK courts already have a pretty bad reputation internationally in other areas, such as in abusing them for defamation lawsuits resulting in US legislative action to block them (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPEECH_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPEECH_Act ).

musicale 4y ago

Seems like a good idea to sort this out. And of course if volunteer open source developers are found to be liable, I imagine commercial open and closed source developers (Microsoft, Google, Apple, etc.) will be liable for immense damages as well, so that will be interesting.

csomar 4y ago
This will only apply to the UK? If you are a developer in US soil and you made an MIT OSS, I don’t think someone from Singapore can sue you in the US based on UK law?
- nullc 4y ago
  It depends on the jurisdictions in question. The degree of enforcability differs across pairs and depends on the specifics of the case and the nature of the judgements. But even where enforcability is low, which we believe it would be in this case, having a foreign judgement against you is a bad thing, particularly one from a major jurisdiction. As I explained in other comments-- even if you believe/hope it would be unenforceable it can still be unwise to ignore foreign litigation because you won't get a change to fight the case on its merits later should it turn out to be a problem. Perhaps if you were facing a likely unenforceable foreign case that you were sure to lose then you might be best off ignoring it.
- User23 4y ago
  I’m not a lawyer, but I do know that commercial treaties are a thing so maybe they can? I do vaguely recall some handwringing over treaty regimes like WIPO and WTO so maybe there’s something in place that would expose US nationals to enforcement here? I bet the lawyer who could answer that question has an hefty hourly rate.