6 ms·

I understand not everyone may like samsung's spin on basic apps and thats fine... But to pretend the google ones are 'true android' and everyone else's are some

by Xeamek 4y ago

I understand not everyone may like samsung's spin on basic apps and thats fine... But to pretend the google ones are 'true android' and everyone else's are somehow inherently fake is approaching Apple's fan level of fanaticism. Stock android is long dead and if you actually go into androids repository, all the basics app have been abandoned. What you get with pixel is exactly the same what you get with samsung: closed source apps. One was made by Google and the other one by samsung. But ultimately they aren't any closer to 'pure android' then going into market place and just downloading a third-party calendar or calculator from there. But also, samsung does try to make stuff themselves, not just "copy" basic google apps: samsung Dex or Knox are features that are fairly unique when compared to other android vendors. Also, there is much more customization. So while it doesn't completely excuse the fact of using more space then pixels version of android, there are some feature differences that make this disparity less outrageous.

NoboruWataya 4y ago
I basically want something as close as possible to GrapheneOS but which can run Google Wallet (and which is guaranteed to run my banking apps). So a nice, clean, stock Android where the default apps are removable or as unobtrusive as possible (so I can install FOSS equivalents from F-Droid) would be nice.
- nelblu 4y ago
  Try calyxos with microG.
- jacooper 4y ago
  So a pixel.
  - NoboruWataya 4y ago
    I think so. My next phone will likely be a Pixel or a Fairphone.
  - MikusR 4y ago
    Pixels don't run stock android
    - jacooper 4y ago
      A better version of it, yes.
- benatkin 4y ago
  I prefer Samsung Pay.
mrcrumb1 4y ago
Is it really that confusing or surprising that people prefer the first party apps over 3rd party apps?
- mardifoufs 4y ago
  They aren't really third party apps in a samsung device. They are often much more integrated than the usual, google developed apps. Though I still disagree with the GP, because even providing more apps shouldn't lead to a 60gb OS size.
  - mrcrumb1 4y ago
    Would you consider the software that Dell and HP add to Windows to not be 3rd party apps?
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- blackoil 4y ago
  Yes, particularly when first party apps are crap. We simply need option to remove the apps we don't like.
- Xeamek 4y ago
  The problem is that they aren't first party apps. Yes, they are made by the same company but they aren't inherently part of the system. It's like if you called MS office a "first party app" and use this argument in comparison to Google docs. Just because Microsoft made both office and windows, doesn't mean that office is somehow more "pure" then using Google docs. It's all preference.
  - mrcrumb1 4y ago
    1st party doesn't mean "part of the system", it means built by the same people who make the OS. I said nothing about purity. I'd argue people's preference for "stock" Android have nothing to do with purity; they just have a preference for the apps google makes for Android because they like the experience better. Android has always had the capability to switch your default app, but there is a subset of people who prefer the stock experience. I don't know why that has to be some sort of cult like obedience rather than a rational choice
dotnet00 4y ago
Agreed. I generally prefer Android to be close to 'stock', but with my first Samsung device (an S8 Ultra bought at launch last year), I felt like a lot of what Samsung included by default was pretty sensible, with Dex being pretty great. The 'bloat' being somewhat useful and the seemingly better cross-device communication features (compared to a non-Samsung phone with Samsung tablet) have led me to pre-order an S23 Ultra (I was due for a new phone soon anyway and Google Fi has a pretty good deal). Plus, having the phone support wacom just completes the set for me.
xattt 4y ago
My experience in owning Samsung products is that software quality control and support tends to be… less than ideal. They go all in with impressive visual that don’t translate across the platform, and then pull support some abysmally short time later. Case in point: I have a 10-year-old pre-Tizen Samsung Smart TV I’m keeping alive for reasons. It had a Netflix app. Two years after buying it, Netflix got updated with a new UI, but only on the US store (not in Canada). I called support at the time to say why is the app not in the Canadian store. Netflix says it’s Samsung’s problem; Samsung says it’s Netflix’s problem. I recently did a factory reset and connected it back to the web. However, the “new” Netflix UI app doesn’t download anymore from the US store. The old app isn’t supported by Netflix either. Using Google software at least has some predictability and that you can get binaries from sources. Dealing with Samsung is a black hole.
- nsonha 4y ago
  You should be careful judging all of samsung software based on their old software. Even in android, One UI was atrocious up to v2 but it's solid in its current iteration. I still think google's design is more pleasing and consistent though.
  - xattt 4y ago
    I understand there may be developers on here that work for Samsung that take pride in what they do. Kudos to them. I am also a consumer that got burned by a Kafkaesque experience with a certain company. I tend to follow the rule: “Fool me once, shame on you; Fool me twice, can’t get fooled again.”
    - Mindwipe 4y ago
      I mean, fair enough, but the alternative here is Google.
      - paledot 4y ago
        Right. Imagine how badly you have to mess up your support lifetime to look bad next to Google. Yet Samsung manages it. Although Google does have a decent track record for device support lifetime, so long as you rely on a service that's getting completely canned.
fomine3 4y ago
Also some feature on "plain" Android are bad IMO. I'm happy about that Samsung adopt old notification bar / quick settings UI.
largepeepee 4y ago
Agreed. As someone who switches between the older s22+ and the recent pixel 7, I found the same problem on both - you can't remove the "stock" apps on either. That said, I actually prefer the experience on Samsung, their plus/note series development with the stylus feels great to use and I find myself going back to it than the new pixel. As much as I want to like Google products, they seem to keep missing the mark with stuff like a janky finger sensor and poor swipe detection l.
- LoganDark 4y ago
  > you can't remove the "stock" apps on either. You can. You can use the shell command `pm disable-user <package>` (over ADB) to completely disable a package, even if it won't let you uninstall it. We've actually bricked Samsung devices before by disabling Knox, which will cause the phone to completely lock you out. Luckily we were still in a shell so we could re-enable it before the phone was toast for good. -Emily
throw03172019 4y ago
UI/UX of Google Pixel phones compared to Samsung phones is night and day. Samsungs always feel sluggish in comparison. (Apple fanboy who developed on Android)
nortonham 4y ago
I used samsung phones and liked some of their default apps more than "stock" android apps; especially the camera/gallery, the audio player, the sms app more than google's app
cleanchit 4y ago
Pixel doesn't install candy crush on my phone.
- seized 4y ago
  And Facebook and that weird Flipboard news app and so many others. Most of which can't (or couldn't be) removed easily. Having used Samsungs before, switching to Pixels makes things so.... Clean.
- achow 4y ago
  There is no candy crush or similar in today's Samsung phones.
sfmike 4y ago
I think you're correct in the closed source argument 100% but that can be true while Google is also the closest to 'true android'. In essense as far as conflict of interest of parties(google owning android) also in history of android development, it is in essence the purest form. That being said you're correct it's just as closed as anything else. I think both can be true, it's just the purest android now is a cloud locked proprietary thing. The truest philosophical android would be either an older version run or going for linux on phone if you want to get to the essence of OG android.
hansvm 4y ago
All I know is my galaxy wants to download N gigabytes to update every month or two, do it again the same day after the first one, and revert every privacy setting to default (not private) in the process. I've resorted to DNS shenanigans to limit the abuse, only temporarily allowing some domains as necessary for wifi calling or whatever. My pixel 2 never had that sort of bullshit. I never had to figure out how to disable (because uninstalling isn't allowed and neither is root on a Samsung) Candy Crush, I never had to disable (every unwanted "update") location services and ads for my fucking builtin camera, and it had a general feeling of just working. The stock Samsung apps weren't amazing, but ignoring the phoning home with my location and screenshot and recent conversations they weren't shockingly terrible, nevertheless that wasn't my issue with the experience by a longshot.
- account42 4y ago
  The system update notification also randomly pops up fullscreen in front of whatever app you are actively using. And some vendor apps even have their own notifications outside the play store ones - why the fuck would I care about updating "Voice Recorder" that it needs its own notification when I have never used it and the only reason it's installed at all is because it came preinstalled and can't be removed. This is so infuriating that I refuse to update out of spite and will definitely not be buying a Samsung for my next phone.
simula67 4y ago
I think that the bigger concern is mentioned here: > That means two app stores, two browsers, two voice assistants, two text messaging apps, two keyboard apps, and on and on. These all get added to the system partition and often aren't removable. Samsung is free to install software that they want on the phone, but they should make them removable. Having two versions of everything has implications for performance, security, and other non-functional requirements.
- Mindwipe 4y ago
  Not really - the system partition is ROM, and they can be disabled. They just survive a factory reset, and putting apps that are supposed to survive factory reset in the system partition is what the Android developer documentation explicitly states you should do. But if they're disabled they do not run, and can't run, so the implications for performance and security are zero. The only conceivable impact is that some storage is used up, but as seen in the other comments we are talking dozens of megabytes here, and the article is completely wrong about the partition size.
PaulHoule 4y ago
We've been through this with other operating systems such as Windows. Microsoft can be problematic on its own, but once a vendor like Dell, HP or Lenovo starts adding crapplets to your OS you are going from the frying pan to the fire. It's not that they can't make something which is useful, I had a Dell machine that had a pretty good utility for updating drivers but that utility started hassling me for an extended service plan once my machine reached "a certain age" and later started begging me to trade the computer in and get a new one. In the past it was a lot worse, because of pushback from users and Microsoft I think PC vendors feel somewhat constrained, but left to their own devices PC vendors would crap up PCs with disastrously bad software. See https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/craplets-could-damage-vista-launch-microsoft-exec-1.692434 https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/craplets-could-damage-vista-...
- Xeamek 4y ago
  Except Windows is complete experience from the get go. AOSP really isn't, and if you want to see what a "true" android looks like, install AndroidStudio and launch an emulator with NoGoogleImage. What would be much more apt analogy, are linux distros

by Xeamek 4y ago

NoboruWataya 4y ago

I basically want something as close as possible to GrapheneOS but which can run Google Wallet (and which is guaranteed to run my banking apps). So a nice, clean, stock Android where the default apps are removable or as unobtrusive as possible (so I can install FOSS equivalents from F-Droid) would be nice.

nelblu 4y ago
Try calyxos with microG.
jacooper 4y ago
So a pixel.
- NoboruWataya 4y ago
  I think so. My next phone will likely be a Pixel or a Fairphone.
- MikusR 4y ago
  Pixels don't run stock android
  - jacooper 4y ago
    A better version of it, yes.
benatkin 4y ago
I prefer Samsung Pay.

mrcrumb1 4y ago

Is it really that confusing or surprising that people prefer the first party apps over 3rd party apps?

mardifoufs 4y ago
They aren't really third party apps in a samsung device. They are often much more integrated than the usual, google developed apps. Though I still disagree with the GP, because even providing more apps shouldn't lead to a 60gb OS size.
- mrcrumb1 4y ago
  Would you consider the software that Dell and HP add to Windows to not be 3rd party apps?
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
blackoil 4y ago
Yes, particularly when first party apps are crap. We simply need option to remove the apps we don't like.
Xeamek 4y ago
The problem is that they aren't first party apps. Yes, they are made by the same company but they aren't inherently part of the system. It's like if you called MS office a "first party app" and use this argument in comparison to Google docs. Just because Microsoft made both office and windows, doesn't mean that office is somehow more "pure" then using Google docs. It's all preference.
- mrcrumb1 4y ago
  1st party doesn't mean "part of the system", it means built by the same people who make the OS. I said nothing about purity. I'd argue people's preference for "stock" Android have nothing to do with purity; they just have a preference for the apps google makes for Android because they like the experience better. Android has always had the capability to switch your default app, but there is a subset of people who prefer the stock experience. I don't know why that has to be some sort of cult like obedience rather than a rational choice

dotnet00 4y ago

Agreed. I generally prefer Android to be close to 'stock', but with my first Samsung device (an S8 Ultra bought at launch last year), I felt like a lot of what Samsung included by default was pretty sensible, with Dex being pretty great. The 'bloat' being somewhat useful and the seemingly better cross-device communication features (compared to a non-Samsung phone with Samsung tablet) have led me to pre-order an S23 Ultra (I was due for a new phone soon anyway and Google Fi has a pretty good deal). Plus, having the phone support wacom just completes the set for me.

xattt 4y ago

My experience in owning Samsung products is that software quality control and support tends to be… less than ideal. They go all in with impressive visual that don’t translate across the platform, and then pull support some abysmally short time later. Case in point: I have a 10-year-old pre-Tizen Samsung Smart TV I’m keeping alive for reasons. It had a Netflix app. Two years after buying it, Netflix got updated with a new UI, but only on the US store (not in Canada). I called support at the time to say why is the app not in the Canadian store. Netflix says it’s Samsung’s problem; Samsung says it’s Netflix’s problem. I recently did a factory reset and connected it back to the web. However, the “new” Netflix UI app doesn’t download anymore from the US store. The old app isn’t supported by Netflix either. Using Google software at least has some predictability and that you can get binaries from sources. Dealing with Samsung is a black hole.

nsonha 4y ago
You should be careful judging all of samsung software based on their old software. Even in android, One UI was atrocious up to v2 but it's solid in its current iteration. I still think google's design is more pleasing and consistent though.
- xattt 4y ago
  I understand there may be developers on here that work for Samsung that take pride in what they do. Kudos to them. I am also a consumer that got burned by a Kafkaesque experience with a certain company. I tend to follow the rule: “Fool me once, shame on you; Fool me twice, can’t get fooled again.”
  - Mindwipe 4y ago
    I mean, fair enough, but the alternative here is Google.
    - paledot 4y ago
      Right. Imagine how badly you have to mess up your support lifetime to look bad next to Google. Yet Samsung manages it. Although Google does have a decent track record for device support lifetime, so long as you rely on a service that's getting completely canned.

fomine3 4y ago

Also some feature on "plain" Android are bad IMO. I'm happy about that Samsung adopt old notification bar / quick settings UI.

largepeepee 4y ago

Agreed. As someone who switches between the older s22+ and the recent pixel 7, I found the same problem on both - you can't remove the "stock" apps on either. That said, I actually prefer the experience on Samsung, their plus/note series development with the stylus feels great to use and I find myself going back to it than the new pixel. As much as I want to like Google products, they seem to keep missing the mark with stuff like a janky finger sensor and poor swipe detection l.

LoganDark 4y ago
> you can't remove the "stock" apps on either. You can. You can use the shell command `pm disable-user <package>` (over ADB) to completely disable a package, even if it won't let you uninstall it. We've actually bricked Samsung devices before by disabling Knox, which will cause the phone to completely lock you out. Luckily we were still in a shell so we could re-enable it before the phone was toast for good. -Emily

throw03172019 4y ago

UI/UX of Google Pixel phones compared to Samsung phones is night and day. Samsungs always feel sluggish in comparison. (Apple fanboy who developed on Android)

nortonham 4y ago

I used samsung phones and liked some of their default apps more than "stock" android apps; especially the camera/gallery, the audio player, the sms app more than google's app

cleanchit 4y ago

Pixel doesn't install candy crush on my phone.

seized 4y ago
And Facebook and that weird Flipboard news app and so many others. Most of which can't (or couldn't be) removed easily. Having used Samsungs before, switching to Pixels makes things so.... Clean.
achow 4y ago
There is no candy crush or similar in today's Samsung phones.

sfmike 4y ago

I think you're correct in the closed source argument 100% but that can be true while Google is also the closest to 'true android'. In essense as far as conflict of interest of parties(google owning android) also in history of android development, it is in essence the purest form. That being said you're correct it's just as closed as anything else. I think both can be true, it's just the purest android now is a cloud locked proprietary thing. The truest philosophical android would be either an older version run or going for linux on phone if you want to get to the essence of OG android.

hansvm 4y ago

All I know is my galaxy wants to download N gigabytes to update every month or two, do it again the same day after the first one, and revert every privacy setting to default (not private) in the process. I've resorted to DNS shenanigans to limit the abuse, only temporarily allowing some domains as necessary for wifi calling or whatever. My pixel 2 never had that sort of bullshit. I never had to figure out how to disable (because uninstalling isn't allowed and neither is root on a Samsung) Candy Crush, I never had to disable (every unwanted "update") location services and ads for my fucking builtin camera, and it had a general feeling of just working. The stock Samsung apps weren't amazing, but ignoring the phoning home with my location and screenshot and recent conversations they weren't shockingly terrible, nevertheless that wasn't my issue with the experience by a longshot.

account42 4y ago
The system update notification also randomly pops up fullscreen in front of whatever app you are actively using. And some vendor apps even have their own notifications outside the play store ones - why the fuck would I care about updating "Voice Recorder" that it needs its own notification when I have never used it and the only reason it's installed at all is because it came preinstalled and can't be removed. This is so infuriating that I refuse to update out of spite and will definitely not be buying a Samsung for my next phone.

simula67 4y ago

I think that the bigger concern is mentioned here: > That means two app stores, two browsers, two voice assistants, two text messaging apps, two keyboard apps, and on and on. These all get added to the system partition and often aren't removable. Samsung is free to install software that they want on the phone, but they should make them removable. Having two versions of everything has implications for performance, security, and other non-functional requirements.

Mindwipe 4y ago
Not really - the system partition is ROM, and they can be disabled. They just survive a factory reset, and putting apps that are supposed to survive factory reset in the system partition is what the Android developer documentation explicitly states you should do. But if they're disabled they do not run, and can't run, so the implications for performance and security are zero. The only conceivable impact is that some storage is used up, but as seen in the other comments we are talking dozens of megabytes here, and the article is completely wrong about the partition size.

PaulHoule 4y ago

We've been through this with other operating systems such as Windows. Microsoft can be problematic on its own, but once a vendor like Dell, HP or Lenovo starts adding crapplets to your OS you are going from the frying pan to the fire. It's not that they can't make something which is useful, I had a Dell machine that had a pretty good utility for updating drivers but that utility started hassling me for an extended service plan once my machine reached "a certain age" and later started begging me to trade the computer in and get a new one. In the past it was a lot worse, because of pushback from users and Microsoft I think PC vendors feel somewhat constrained, but left to their own devices PC vendors would crap up PCs with disastrously bad software. See https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/craplets-could-damage-vista-launch-microsoft-exec-1.692434 https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/craplets-could-damage-vista-...

Xeamek 4y ago
Except Windows is complete experience from the get go. AOSP really isn't, and if you want to see what a "true" android looks like, install AndroidStudio and launch an emulator with NoGoogleImage. What would be much more apt analogy, are linux distros