4 ms·

Unfortunately, OSM takes clear political stances and does not use internationally recognized borders when they should. That is antithetical to freedom (as in fr

Unfortunately, OSM takes clear political stances and does not use internationally recognized borders when they should. That is antithetical to freedom (as in free software) and is why I would never donate to the project.

mistrial9 4y ago
could you be more specific ? If the Openstreetmap is a description of things that are visible, like built roads, buildings and named places.. How are disputed borders stopping the useful building of a map? Doesn't the United Nations and many Federal governments, have conventions for showing and discussing borders in dispute? Why would disputed borders in some places, stop the (obviously) global project from continuing to map the real, physical place of Earth ?
RobotToaster 4y ago
Such as?
- mtmail 4y ago
  Not OP but I can give an example. Kosovo is recognized by 101 of 193 UN members. Something can be international recognized and still whatever option you show on a map you potentially anger half the world. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_Kosovo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_K... . Somaliland isn't recognized by UN https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somaliland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somaliland There's 4 possible maps of Western Sahara https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_status_of_Western_Sahara https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_status_of_Western_Sa... Crimea is either Russian or Ukranian on some maps, for a while both in OSM
redfast00 4y ago
There is a policy about this: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Disputed_territories https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Disputed_territories
- bjourne 4y ago
  That policy is not uniformly applied. In some conflicts "realities on the ground" are mapped and visible, but not in others. The actual effective policy is whatever biases and prejudices OSMs contributors have.
  - npteljes 4y ago
    I think this is what happens when you crowdsource things. Parts become a bit fragmented, because many different people work on them - so in effect, the product reflects the organization's structure that builds the product. Wikipedia also has this issue, on the English Wikipedia itself, and also when you look at the relations of the different language Wikipedias. I personally love these projects despite these issues.
    - bjourne 4y ago
      Exactly. Which is why internationally recognized borders is the way to go. It's way better than having sensitive issues settled by what the members with the most clout in the community think because it, more or less, just codifies Western biases since most members are from Western countries.
      - creatonez 4y ago
        What exactly are "internationally recognized borders"? There are countless disputes that half the world's countries see one way and the other half see another way. The UN doesn't help on this matter either, they don't often vote on borders and how they should be reflected in geospatial data. When the term "internationally recognized borders" is used by a government or institution, it's almost always a buzzword to assist a specific agenda or to actualize a specific geopolitical alignment. It's not a technical term.
    - thriftwy 4y ago
      They have explicitly violated their own OTG rules with regards to Crimea. Then they have reverted the later decision to uphold OTG rule[1] with "no explanation". 1. https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Working_Group_Minutes/DWG_2018-11-14_Crimea https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Working_Group_Minutes/DW...
anitil 4y ago
Any discussion about borders is fraught, and no matter what decision you make many people will be unhappy. I don't think it is useful to tie that to freedom

mistrial9 4y ago

could you be more specific ? If the Openstreetmap is a description of things that are visible, like built roads, buildings and named places.. How are disputed borders stopping the useful building of a map? Doesn't the United Nations and many Federal governments, have conventions for showing and discussing borders in dispute? Why would disputed borders in some places, stop the (obviously) global project from continuing to map the real, physical place of Earth ?

RobotToaster 4y ago

Such as?

mtmail 4y ago
Not OP but I can give an example. Kosovo is recognized by 101 of 193 UN members. Something can be international recognized and still whatever option you show on a map you potentially anger half the world. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_Kosovo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_K... . Somaliland isn't recognized by UN https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somaliland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somaliland There's 4 possible maps of Western Sahara https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_status_of_Western_Sahara https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_status_of_Western_Sa... Crimea is either Russian or Ukranian on some maps, for a while both in OSM

redfast00 4y ago

There is a policy about this: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Disputed_territories https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Disputed_territories

bjourne 4y ago
That policy is not uniformly applied. In some conflicts "realities on the ground" are mapped and visible, but not in others. The actual effective policy is whatever biases and prejudices OSMs contributors have.
- npteljes 4y ago
  I think this is what happens when you crowdsource things. Parts become a bit fragmented, because many different people work on them - so in effect, the product reflects the organization's structure that builds the product. Wikipedia also has this issue, on the English Wikipedia itself, and also when you look at the relations of the different language Wikipedias. I personally love these projects despite these issues.
  - bjourne 4y ago
    Exactly. Which is why internationally recognized borders is the way to go. It's way better than having sensitive issues settled by what the members with the most clout in the community think because it, more or less, just codifies Western biases since most members are from Western countries.
    - creatonez 4y ago
      What exactly are "internationally recognized borders"? There are countless disputes that half the world's countries see one way and the other half see another way. The UN doesn't help on this matter either, they don't often vote on borders and how they should be reflected in geospatial data. When the term "internationally recognized borders" is used by a government or institution, it's almost always a buzzword to assist a specific agenda or to actualize a specific geopolitical alignment. It's not a technical term.
  - thriftwy 4y ago
    They have explicitly violated their own OTG rules with regards to Crimea. Then they have reverted the later decision to uphold OTG rule[1] with "no explanation". 1. https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Working_Group_Minutes/DWG_2018-11-14_Crimea https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Working_Group_Minutes/DW...

anitil 4y ago

Any discussion about borders is fraught, and no matter what decision you make many people will be unhappy. I don't think it is useful to tie that to freedom