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The early web was precisely like this - from scam sites that were for stealing your cc to criminal sites that openly sold illegal stuff. Beyond that, user gener

The early web was precisely like this - from scam sites that were for stealing your cc to criminal sites that openly sold illegal stuff. Beyond that, user generated content in the community forums and sites on the fringes of the internet were seen as 'littering' the Internet and a waste of space because they weren't generating any economic value, hence they did not have any 'use case'. Then everything suddenly changed when a few large-scale use cases appeared. User-generated content now drives the Internet. Those small sites, shops, forums evolved into giant outlets, businesses, communities. Same with the blockchain - we do see that we can do stuff with it. We do see that it gives the technical capabilities to do more stuff. But the actual use cases are scarce and small, mostly due to the technical infrastructure not being able to support large scale activity and the crypto space and apps still not being user-friendly enough to allow the public to use anything at large. Precisely the situation with the early web in which only those who knew could get to the forums on the fringes of the internet and use them for anything while the non-technical users were left to use the corporate sites that they would find in the 'portals' that fired up when they clicked on 'the Internet' (IE, Firefox etc - the browser icon was 'the internet'). When the infrastructure improves and/or someone finds an easy to use use case with large scale appeal, everything will turn around in a second.

rnk 4y ago
There was fraud but there were useful things happening on the early web, building communities was one of those that crypto has done inadvertantly, but there were actual useful things happening with the web in the early days, it wasn't all fraud - I see hardly any use for crypto other than people benefitting (and others hurting) from the ponzi scheme aspects of it.
- unity1001 4y ago
  There is still a lot of useful things happening on the web. The quagmire of social networks or how various state and private actors anywhere on the planet (including the 'free' world) abusing the internet or the extreme fringe socioeconomic segments which were formerly invisible now becoming visible thanks to the Internet do not make the Internet a place in which less useful things are happening. All of those existed before. Its just that they were out of your sight. > I see hardly any use for crypto other than people benefitting (and others hurting) from the ponzi scheme aspects of it It already facilitates easy transference of funds, an investment tool, citizen-governed, transparent organizations in the form of DAOs from everywhere and anywhere on the planet - which is likely the most important thing at the moment -, impossible to censor apps and publishing on distributed databases and many other things. Especially the DAOs are something new in human civilization's history, and them being away from your sight or you not having much insight into them does not make it any less important than online credit card payments. Which were originally invented and used by - surprise - porn sites on the early Internet. So again it comes to the same thing that I stated in the original comment: The early Internet was similar to the blockchain space that exists now - a space that was dangerous for the ordinary non-technical citizen to enter even while it enabled many things that were at the time seen as 'useless' and 'detrimental' to the society. I reiterate that even the user-generated content, now celebrated as the democratization of content with all its benefits and ills, was seen as 'useless spam' back then. Major publications, newspaper sites did not have any comment section. Corporate sites did not have any kind of user feedback, less, any consideration for users aside from them being able to buy whatever they were selling at the time without making any noise - after all, who were us, the plebs, to be able to comment under the article of a 6-figure/year columnist or give product feedback to an illustrious company. It took a decade for them to come around and have to submit to such democratization of content and the Internet in general after blogosphere, user-driven forums and whatnot changed the landscape. Even today NYT still doesnt permit anyone commenting under its articles. Its absolutely the same with blockchain today - if you know about it, being savvy enough, if you follow the right stuff, you will find a lot of good stuff. If you aren't, and instead, if you see it as how old people saw the Internet back then, you will see all the bad stuff and it will be a dangerous and unnecessary place for you.
r00fus 4y ago
> The early web was precisely like this I was around before the web days so I quite remember that time well. While there may have been scam sites, it was a significant minority to the main usage of the web at the time (mostly hobbyist pages and early corporate usage in addition to a lot of porn). Blockchain is a solution looking for a problem. Maybe some day someone will figure out a legitimate usage that isn't a cover for all the stuff I mentioned. It will be very interesting to see what survives after the end of QE/ZIRP.
- unity1001 4y ago
  > it was a significant minority to the main usage of the web at the time It wasn't. Your perspective seems to be skewed just like the other commentators who think that the early internet was a 'nice place' because their usage was specifically shaped by academic research, corporate and government usage and their tech-savviness. The public Internet was a pretty wild and dangerous place for the non-tech savvy masses. Which is one reason why the Internet did not take off to become what it is now until after mid 2000s and many business practices and trust-generating systems and services were established, along with mobile devices enabling everyone to access it. > Blockchain is a solution looking for a problem. Blockchain is not a solution. Its a technology.
  - r00fus 4y ago
    > Which is one reason why the Internet did not take off to become what it is now until after mid 2000s Are you and I from different universes? Are you forgetting about the .com boom (and subsequent bust in 2001)? Internet was mainstream well before 2005. You also seem to be convinced that it was dangerous - it honestly wasn't. The concept of doxing, credit card fraud and integration with modern crime simply weren't there until after it became mainstream. Got any actual citiations or data?
    - unity1001 4y ago
      > the .com boom (and subsequent bust in 2001)? That was an event specific to the 'more corporate' web as it existed then. Big company sites and big company services were involved in that web. The Internet was limited to tech savvy people and it did not reach the masses yet. The economic activity within that space being big enough for its time does not mean that the Internet was a society-wide event, less, it was global across societies. The user-driven blogosphere, community forums on the fringes of the internet and what little economic activity that was there did not get affected from the .com bust for example. It was something specific to a very narrow segment of the society and the economy. > The concept of doxing, credit card fraud and integration with modern crime simply weren't there Wow. You really dont seem to have much experience or insight (less alone having to have done actual work in) the early user-driven Internet. No surprise since how you think that .com bust was something that affected 'the Internet' - that was your perspective. Back in the day, if you gave your credit card to a 'wrong' site, it was gone. They'd rack up debt up until your limit within a day or even hours, and you wouldnt be able to get the funds back from that 'no name' country where they used it from and transferred the funds to. People feared that a lot - that's why a lot of 'reassuring' badges and references were used at the footer or carts of any website, from BBB to 'certified' Paypal, 2checkout (then a thing) and other services. While making an ecommerce site for any client, the first thing that they would be concerned with would be that and it would take a considerable time of the project to minimize that fear factor in the clients. And it was universal - the Open Source or private installable cart or ecommerce software that originated in that era still may have 'Secure checkout' or 'This checkout is secured by SSL' etc in their uis even in their latest iterations today. Now you wont see any of that anywhere thanks to Paypal, Stripe, Amazon and plethora of others. This fear factor made most of the economic activity limited to those 'big sites' that people could trust. The public-driven ecommerce only became a thing towards mid 2000s. But no, I dont have any data handy. The early user-driven web wasnt something that 'serious' and 'important' institutions would care about. Im sure that someone somewhere has some statistics about early fraud, that's certain. But someone must dig and find it. ... Our perspectives are too different due to them originating in the different parts of the early Internet. A more institutional, 'big' corporate perspective versus user-driven, chaotic, 'fringe' perspective. Having come from the latter background and now working in both sides of that divide, I can easily say that that separation of perspectives still exists today and it is the problem that causes the 'big tech' to be unable to understand larger internet user base - especially the emergent 'creator economy' - as can be seen from how every single tech giant flopped majestically in that space. But this is a long, big discussion that I neither have time nor the enthusiasm for. So, I'll bail out. Cheers.
tsimionescu 4y ago
The blockchain is just a hard to use DB. Sure, it's "trustless", but there really isn't value in that for any kind of social interaction. The more you understand this tech, the less interesting it becomes.
- humanizersequel 4y ago
  The more I think about it, the more conceptually profound a trustless database (and in the case of more sophisticated chains like ethereum, execution environment) seems.
mrguyorama 4y ago
>The early web was precisely like this Except it wasn't. The "early internet" was ARPANET in like the 60s, and it was already being used by researches and US government agencies to coordinate and share information and cooperate. The internet was already decades old by the 90s, with an extensive track record of being useful. The 90s weren't an early age of the internet, it was the early age of internet security that allowed you to use your credit card through the internet and be sure it wouldn't be stolen. Pretty much right away after that was possible, Sears had an integration to buy stuff from them over the internet. Shortly after that, Amazon was founded. The early days of bitcoin was the 2010s, and several companies tried to integrate with it, including web stores and Steam, and they all eventually removed their integration because crypto makes terrible money, so nobody was using it.
- unity1001 4y ago
  > Except it wasn't. The "early internet" was ARPANET in like the 60s 'Early Internet' as in public usage. Not its research roots. > The 90s weren't an early age of the internet, it was the early age of internet security that allowed you to use your credit card through the internet and be sure it wouldn't be stolen That must be an alternate internet in an alternate timeline. From mid 90s to mid 2000s the Internet was a pretty dangerous place for any non-technical folk to use their credit cards anywhere. You must be looking from a tech-savvy person's perspective just like how you took the 'early Internet' to be ARPANET. > crypto makes terrible money If your understanding of crypto is limited to that, its no wonder you have the perspective that you have. Just like how many people said that the community forums back in early 2000s were 'plebs' spamming the internet.
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > > The early web was precisely like this > Except it wasn't. The "early internet" was ARPANET While the Web may be the face of the internet most people are familiar with, the “early web” is not the same thing as “the early internet” which, in turn, is not the same thing as “precursors to the internet”. It wasn't the internet, or even an internet, until non-ARPANET networks were connected (e.g., CSNET), and there wasn't a world wide web until HTML & HTTP & browsers were designed and deployed on the internet.

rnk 4y ago

There was fraud but there were useful things happening on the early web, building communities was one of those that crypto has done inadvertantly, but there were actual useful things happening with the web in the early days, it wasn't all fraud - I see hardly any use for crypto other than people benefitting (and others hurting) from the ponzi scheme aspects of it.

unity1001 4y ago
There is still a lot of useful things happening on the web. The quagmire of social networks or how various state and private actors anywhere on the planet (including the 'free' world) abusing the internet or the extreme fringe socioeconomic segments which were formerly invisible now becoming visible thanks to the Internet do not make the Internet a place in which less useful things are happening. All of those existed before. Its just that they were out of your sight. > I see hardly any use for crypto other than people benefitting (and others hurting) from the ponzi scheme aspects of it It already facilitates easy transference of funds, an investment tool, citizen-governed, transparent organizations in the form of DAOs from everywhere and anywhere on the planet - which is likely the most important thing at the moment -, impossible to censor apps and publishing on distributed databases and many other things. Especially the DAOs are something new in human civilization's history, and them being away from your sight or you not having much insight into them does not make it any less important than online credit card payments. Which were originally invented and used by - surprise - porn sites on the early Internet. So again it comes to the same thing that I stated in the original comment: The early Internet was similar to the blockchain space that exists now - a space that was dangerous for the ordinary non-technical citizen to enter even while it enabled many things that were at the time seen as 'useless' and 'detrimental' to the society. I reiterate that even the user-generated content, now celebrated as the democratization of content with all its benefits and ills, was seen as 'useless spam' back then. Major publications, newspaper sites did not have any comment section. Corporate sites did not have any kind of user feedback, less, any consideration for users aside from them being able to buy whatever they were selling at the time without making any noise - after all, who were us, the plebs, to be able to comment under the article of a 6-figure/year columnist or give product feedback to an illustrious company. It took a decade for them to come around and have to submit to such democratization of content and the Internet in general after blogosphere, user-driven forums and whatnot changed the landscape. Even today NYT still doesnt permit anyone commenting under its articles. Its absolutely the same with blockchain today - if you know about it, being savvy enough, if you follow the right stuff, you will find a lot of good stuff. If you aren't, and instead, if you see it as how old people saw the Internet back then, you will see all the bad stuff and it will be a dangerous and unnecessary place for you.

r00fus 4y ago

> The early web was precisely like this I was around before the web days so I quite remember that time well. While there may have been scam sites, it was a significant minority to the main usage of the web at the time (mostly hobbyist pages and early corporate usage in addition to a lot of porn). Blockchain is a solution looking for a problem. Maybe some day someone will figure out a legitimate usage that isn't a cover for all the stuff I mentioned. It will be very interesting to see what survives after the end of QE/ZIRP.

unity1001 4y ago
> it was a significant minority to the main usage of the web at the time It wasn't. Your perspective seems to be skewed just like the other commentators who think that the early internet was a 'nice place' because their usage was specifically shaped by academic research, corporate and government usage and their tech-savviness. The public Internet was a pretty wild and dangerous place for the non-tech savvy masses. Which is one reason why the Internet did not take off to become what it is now until after mid 2000s and many business practices and trust-generating systems and services were established, along with mobile devices enabling everyone to access it. > Blockchain is a solution looking for a problem. Blockchain is not a solution. Its a technology.
- r00fus 4y ago
  > Which is one reason why the Internet did not take off to become what it is now until after mid 2000s Are you and I from different universes? Are you forgetting about the .com boom (and subsequent bust in 2001)? Internet was mainstream well before 2005. You also seem to be convinced that it was dangerous - it honestly wasn't. The concept of doxing, credit card fraud and integration with modern crime simply weren't there until after it became mainstream. Got any actual citiations or data?
  - unity1001 4y ago
    > the .com boom (and subsequent bust in 2001)? That was an event specific to the 'more corporate' web as it existed then. Big company sites and big company services were involved in that web. The Internet was limited to tech savvy people and it did not reach the masses yet. The economic activity within that space being big enough for its time does not mean that the Internet was a society-wide event, less, it was global across societies. The user-driven blogosphere, community forums on the fringes of the internet and what little economic activity that was there did not get affected from the .com bust for example. It was something specific to a very narrow segment of the society and the economy. > The concept of doxing, credit card fraud and integration with modern crime simply weren't there Wow. You really dont seem to have much experience or insight (less alone having to have done actual work in) the early user-driven Internet. No surprise since how you think that .com bust was something that affected 'the Internet' - that was your perspective. Back in the day, if you gave your credit card to a 'wrong' site, it was gone. They'd rack up debt up until your limit within a day or even hours, and you wouldnt be able to get the funds back from that 'no name' country where they used it from and transferred the funds to. People feared that a lot - that's why a lot of 'reassuring' badges and references were used at the footer or carts of any website, from BBB to 'certified' Paypal, 2checkout (then a thing) and other services. While making an ecommerce site for any client, the first thing that they would be concerned with would be that and it would take a considerable time of the project to minimize that fear factor in the clients. And it was universal - the Open Source or private installable cart or ecommerce software that originated in that era still may have 'Secure checkout' or 'This checkout is secured by SSL' etc in their uis even in their latest iterations today. Now you wont see any of that anywhere thanks to Paypal, Stripe, Amazon and plethora of others. This fear factor made most of the economic activity limited to those 'big sites' that people could trust. The public-driven ecommerce only became a thing towards mid 2000s. But no, I dont have any data handy. The early user-driven web wasnt something that 'serious' and 'important' institutions would care about. Im sure that someone somewhere has some statistics about early fraud, that's certain. But someone must dig and find it. ... Our perspectives are too different due to them originating in the different parts of the early Internet. A more institutional, 'big' corporate perspective versus user-driven, chaotic, 'fringe' perspective. Having come from the latter background and now working in both sides of that divide, I can easily say that that separation of perspectives still exists today and it is the problem that causes the 'big tech' to be unable to understand larger internet user base - especially the emergent 'creator economy' - as can be seen from how every single tech giant flopped majestically in that space. But this is a long, big discussion that I neither have time nor the enthusiasm for. So, I'll bail out. Cheers.

tsimionescu 4y ago

The blockchain is just a hard to use DB. Sure, it's "trustless", but there really isn't value in that for any kind of social interaction. The more you understand this tech, the less interesting it becomes.

humanizersequel 4y ago
The more I think about it, the more conceptually profound a trustless database (and in the case of more sophisticated chains like ethereum, execution environment) seems.

mrguyorama 4y ago

>The early web was precisely like this Except it wasn't. The "early internet" was ARPANET in like the 60s, and it was already being used by researches and US government agencies to coordinate and share information and cooperate. The internet was already decades old by the 90s, with an extensive track record of being useful. The 90s weren't an early age of the internet, it was the early age of internet security that allowed you to use your credit card through the internet and be sure it wouldn't be stolen. Pretty much right away after that was possible, Sears had an integration to buy stuff from them over the internet. Shortly after that, Amazon was founded. The early days of bitcoin was the 2010s, and several companies tried to integrate with it, including web stores and Steam, and they all eventually removed their integration because crypto makes terrible money, so nobody was using it.

unity1001 4y ago
> Except it wasn't. The "early internet" was ARPANET in like the 60s 'Early Internet' as in public usage. Not its research roots. > The 90s weren't an early age of the internet, it was the early age of internet security that allowed you to use your credit card through the internet and be sure it wouldn't be stolen That must be an alternate internet in an alternate timeline. From mid 90s to mid 2000s the Internet was a pretty dangerous place for any non-technical folk to use their credit cards anywhere. You must be looking from a tech-savvy person's perspective just like how you took the 'early Internet' to be ARPANET. > crypto makes terrible money If your understanding of crypto is limited to that, its no wonder you have the perspective that you have. Just like how many people said that the community forums back in early 2000s were 'plebs' spamming the internet.
dragonwriter 4y ago
> > The early web was precisely like this > Except it wasn't. The "early internet" was ARPANET While the Web may be the face of the internet most people are familiar with, the “early web” is not the same thing as “the early internet” which, in turn, is not the same thing as “precursors to the internet”. It wasn't the internet, or even an internet, until non-ARPANET networks were connected (e.g., CSNET), and there wasn't a world wide web until HTML & HTTP & browsers were designed and deployed on the internet.