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> Can't we do better? If you find a better way, let me know. This is the best one I found, and it doesn't depend on me having a good day and everything being h

> Can't we do better? If you find a better way, let me know. This is the best one I found, and it doesn't depend on me having a good day and everything being hunky dory. > I can't seem to find the switch in the mirror Tidy your room. Start small. Grow from there. Plan, iterate, improve. Whatever you add to the routine, have it stick by sheer force of will and repetition. Fuck your feelings. I mean that. Whatever your feelings tell you, tell them to fuck off. You have something to do and you're going to do it. Period.

aschearer 4y ago
Personally, I've been fortunate insofar as I haven't struggled with motivation. I'm happy you found a system that works for you, but truthfully it sounds harsh. Maybe some people simply need a dominant super ego that runs roughshod over their feelings to get things done... but the idealist in me hopes for something less authoritarian. Like, the whole dichotomy of "you" versus "feelings" strikes me as problematic. Your language, and the comic, seem rife with guilt and shame.
- mrleinad 4y ago
  Anything that doesn't try to cushion feelings feels problematic in this age. I think we need to go back to the stoics, and forget about all this touchy-feely that being all soft is ok. Sometimes it's not ok. When did self-discipline become a bad word for so many people?
  - aschearer 4y ago
    Who said self-discipline is bad? Why can't we have self-discipline without shame, guilt, or authoritarianism? We're not children who need parents to force us clean up our rooms. Sure let's be stoic, but I don't agree that means "fuck your feeling" or looks anything like the comic you linked. There's a third way.
    - mrleinad 4y ago
      > We're not children who need parents to force us clean up our rooms By parent you mean yourself? Because I don't think you're getting the point that sometimes your mind needs to stop and just do the damn job. And you need to be in charge of it, instead of letting it wander on endlessly.
      - aschearer 4y ago
        Yes, by parent I mean the super ego or whatever metaphor suits you. I believe I understand your point, and agree with you. You're saying "sometimes your mind needs to stop" and that "you need to be in charge of it." E.g. your mind might be very anxious and distracted by an upcoming work deadline and seek to soothe itself by reading Hacker News, but "you" should stop that from happening, say by installing a site-blocking plugin for your browser and instituting and adhering to "work hours" each morning. Assuming I'm not way off target, I agree with all that. But it seems we're talking past each other, as I'm responding to your original comic strip which has more to say. The metaphors it uses, and that you have used in this discussion, depict compulsion. That's where I disagree with you. I believe force / shame / guilt work, but that we should aspire for a superior resolution to the problem. One not based on those principles.
        mrleinad 4y ago
        > we should aspire for a superior resolution to the problem The superior resolution is that your mind gets trained not to wander off by constant repetition. Your brain will always seek immediate rewards, it's just innate to your monkey brain. You have to train it not to. Same as you train a muscle to grow by having it lift weights even though it would rather not because it's painful. Not sure why you say "shame" or "guilt", those were never part of my initial argument nor the comic. Force, yes, in the same way you force your arms to do push-ups or lift weights.
skjoldr 4y ago
I have a very strong suspicion of having ADHD and I can tell you that the brain hardware that can tell feelings to fuck off is malfunctioning in ADHD and is fixed by elevating the levels of norepinephrine. It is literally impossible for me to apply the very concept of discipline otherwise. Yes, this condition is as terrifying as you now imagine it to be.
- hirvi74 4y ago
  No kidding. I am right there with you. I get that motivation is a fleeting feeling, but what about when discipline and willpower are too? I have succumbed to the idea that I basically just each day of my life like a game of roulette. Am I going to be productive today? Better spin the wheel to find out.
  - saulpw 4y ago
    Spent whatever minute amounts of motivation/discipline/willpower on building simple and effective "systems" that require no motivation/discipline/willpower. For example, I want to get better at playing piano, but it's both hard to set aside time, and hard to get myself to sit down for a set amount of time and Do Piano. I tried putting the keyboard in a few places, including directly behind my computer desk (literally 2 feet away from me), but there was too much friction involved in moving my chair and changing the lighting etc--it really wasn't much, probably 15 seconds of effort, but it required deliberate intention. I discovered, though, that if the keyboard is on the landing outside my office with a dedicated chair, then I'll see the setup on my way to/from the kitchen, and it will sometimes feel inviting--often a nice distraction while waiting 10 minutes for a meeting, or while procrastinating on something else I'm trying to get motivated on. And sometimes 10 minutes turns into 30 or who knows how long, and my taxes may be stalled out but I sure am making progress on the fugue I'm learning. Source: diagnosed ADD for 20+ years.
    - skjoldr 4y ago
      Yeah, but this scheme becomes a huge problem with a device like a PC that can do anything while physically being in the same space. The only way to brute force that is to buy separate computers for work, gaming, and creative pursuits. Which is kinda expensive.

aschearer 4y ago

Personally, I've been fortunate insofar as I haven't struggled with motivation. I'm happy you found a system that works for you, but truthfully it sounds harsh. Maybe some people simply need a dominant super ego that runs roughshod over their feelings to get things done... but the idealist in me hopes for something less authoritarian. Like, the whole dichotomy of "you" versus "feelings" strikes me as problematic. Your language, and the comic, seem rife with guilt and shame.

mrleinad 4y ago
Anything that doesn't try to cushion feelings feels problematic in this age. I think we need to go back to the stoics, and forget about all this touchy-feely that being all soft is ok. Sometimes it's not ok. When did self-discipline become a bad word for so many people?
- aschearer 4y ago
  Who said self-discipline is bad? Why can't we have self-discipline without shame, guilt, or authoritarianism? We're not children who need parents to force us clean up our rooms. Sure let's be stoic, but I don't agree that means "fuck your feeling" or looks anything like the comic you linked. There's a third way.
  - mrleinad 4y ago
    > We're not children who need parents to force us clean up our rooms By parent you mean yourself? Because I don't think you're getting the point that sometimes your mind needs to stop and just do the damn job. And you need to be in charge of it, instead of letting it wander on endlessly.
    - aschearer 4y ago
      Yes, by parent I mean the super ego or whatever metaphor suits you. I believe I understand your point, and agree with you. You're saying "sometimes your mind needs to stop" and that "you need to be in charge of it." E.g. your mind might be very anxious and distracted by an upcoming work deadline and seek to soothe itself by reading Hacker News, but "you" should stop that from happening, say by installing a site-blocking plugin for your browser and instituting and adhering to "work hours" each morning. Assuming I'm not way off target, I agree with all that. But it seems we're talking past each other, as I'm responding to your original comic strip which has more to say. The metaphors it uses, and that you have used in this discussion, depict compulsion. That's where I disagree with you. I believe force / shame / guilt work, but that we should aspire for a superior resolution to the problem. One not based on those principles.
      - mrleinad 4y ago
        > we should aspire for a superior resolution to the problem The superior resolution is that your mind gets trained not to wander off by constant repetition. Your brain will always seek immediate rewards, it's just innate to your monkey brain. You have to train it not to. Same as you train a muscle to grow by having it lift weights even though it would rather not because it's painful. Not sure why you say "shame" or "guilt", those were never part of my initial argument nor the comic. Force, yes, in the same way you force your arms to do push-ups or lift weights.

skjoldr 4y ago

I have a very strong suspicion of having ADHD and I can tell you that the brain hardware that can tell feelings to fuck off is malfunctioning in ADHD and is fixed by elevating the levels of norepinephrine. It is literally impossible for me to apply the very concept of discipline otherwise. Yes, this condition is as terrifying as you now imagine it to be.

hirvi74 4y ago
No kidding. I am right there with you. I get that motivation is a fleeting feeling, but what about when discipline and willpower are too? I have succumbed to the idea that I basically just each day of my life like a game of roulette. Am I going to be productive today? Better spin the wheel to find out.
- saulpw 4y ago
  Spent whatever minute amounts of motivation/discipline/willpower on building simple and effective "systems" that require no motivation/discipline/willpower. For example, I want to get better at playing piano, but it's both hard to set aside time, and hard to get myself to sit down for a set amount of time and Do Piano. I tried putting the keyboard in a few places, including directly behind my computer desk (literally 2 feet away from me), but there was too much friction involved in moving my chair and changing the lighting etc--it really wasn't much, probably 15 seconds of effort, but it required deliberate intention. I discovered, though, that if the keyboard is on the landing outside my office with a dedicated chair, then I'll see the setup on my way to/from the kitchen, and it will sometimes feel inviting--often a nice distraction while waiting 10 minutes for a meeting, or while procrastinating on something else I'm trying to get motivated on. And sometimes 10 minutes turns into 30 or who knows how long, and my taxes may be stalled out but I sure am making progress on the fugue I'm learning. Source: diagnosed ADD for 20+ years.
  - skjoldr 4y ago
    Yeah, but this scheme becomes a huge problem with a device like a PC that can do anything while physically being in the same space. The only way to brute force that is to buy separate computers for work, gaming, and creative pursuits. Which is kinda expensive.