4 ms·

Okay, which classes of people aren't interested in a relatively cushy, relatively high-paying job? Are blacks and Hispanics, underrepresented in tech, just not

by jawns 4y ago

Okay, which classes of people aren't interested in a relatively cushy, relatively high-paying job? Are blacks and Hispanics, underrepresented in tech, just not interested in programming, or is there maybe a chance that they have the same ability and interest, but less access? Overt discrimination does not even need to exist here, but if there are systemic factors that disadvantage some demographic groups, that can also affect access.

torstenvl 4y ago
African-Americans make up a little more than 1% of all CS program enrollments (13 out of 1113, or 1.17%). Not graduation - enrollment. There are some universities where enrollment in certain majors is competitive, but they are the exception, not the rule. So yes, I'm inclined to believe this is indicative of vastly different levels of interest. https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Nationally-the-number-of-Computer-Science-degrees-awarded-by-race-and-gender-from-1981_fig3_317351499 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Nationally-the-number-of...
- ProfessorLayton 4y ago
  No, it isn't "vastly different levels of interest" it's straight up racism. Racist housing policies discriminated against PoC specifically, and many of these bylaws are still on the books. Housing policies are relevant because the largest component of wealth is homeownership [1], and wealth is the largest indicator in educational attainment. The best schools and educational opportunities have historically been kept from PoC in a very explicit manner. It's no coincidence that the best schools are almost always in the wealthiest neighborhoods that aren't very diverse. [1] https://www.federalreserve.gov/econres/notes/feds-notes/disparities-in-wealth-by-race-and-ethnicity-in-the-2019-survey-of-consumer-finances-20200928.html https://www.federalreserve.gov/econres/notes/feds-notes/disp...
  - torstenvl 4y ago
    African Americans make up 12.7% of the undergraduate population. https://pnpi.org/black-students/ https://pnpi.org/black-students/ They only make up 1.17% of the undergraduate population enrolled in a CS major. Either a disproportionately low number of African American undergrads are choosing to enroll in CS majors (interest), or universities are disproportionately refusing to enroll such students (in which case your argument about racism may have some merit). Do you have any evidence that universities are refusing to allow African American students to enroll in CS?
    - ProfessorLayton 4y ago
      Your own link states that most (72%) black students received Pell Grants — grants that are given based on financial need. As cited in my previous comment, the wealth gaps created by racist housing policies can be across generations. It was less than a generation ago that computers commonly cost 5-figures, and remained expensive until relatively recently. A good proxy is to look at the continued gap in broadband internet adoption by race, which is also linked to income. PoC are less likely to have a broadband connection at home, and relying more on their smartphone/tablet devices [1]. Educational attainment is also linked to broadband adoption [2]. Historically students haven't been learning to code/coding on their smart devices. Lack of access is not lack of interest. [1] https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/07/16/home-broadband-adoption-computer-ownership-vary-by-race-ethnicity-in-the-u-s/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/07/16/home-broadb... [2] https://www.cpuc.ca.gov/-/media/cpuc-website/files/uploadedfiles/cpucwebsite/content/utilitiesindustries/communications/reports_and_presentations/cdvideobb/bagapanalysis.pdf https://www.cpuc.ca.gov/-/media/cpuc-website/files/uploadedf...
      - torstenvl 4y ago
        You keep bringing up irrelevant distractions. Do you have any evidence at all for your claim that universities are refusing to enroll African American students in CS programs?
        ProfessorLayton 4y ago
        I never claimed that. You did. I refuted that it was "vastly different levels of interest" and supported my counterclaims while you did not.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
        torstenvl 4y ago
        That is false, and you know it to be false. My claim is that they are choosing not to enroll in CS programs, i.e., that they have less interest in CS programs. You dispute my claim, by which it must necessarily follow that they are somehow disproportionately prevented from enrolling despite wanting to enroll. Where is your evidence of that?

by jawns 4y ago

torstenvl 4y ago

African-Americans make up a little more than 1% of all CS program enrollments (13 out of 1113, or 1.17%). Not graduation - enrollment. There are some universities where enrollment in certain majors is competitive, but they are the exception, not the rule. So yes, I'm inclined to believe this is indicative of vastly different levels of interest. https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Nationally-the-number-of-Computer-Science-degrees-awarded-by-race-and-gender-from-1981_fig3_317351499 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Nationally-the-number-of...

ProfessorLayton 4y ago
No, it isn't "vastly different levels of interest" it's straight up racism. Racist housing policies discriminated against PoC specifically, and many of these bylaws are still on the books. Housing policies are relevant because the largest component of wealth is homeownership [1], and wealth is the largest indicator in educational attainment. The best schools and educational opportunities have historically been kept from PoC in a very explicit manner. It's no coincidence that the best schools are almost always in the wealthiest neighborhoods that aren't very diverse. [1] https://www.federalreserve.gov/econres/notes/feds-notes/disparities-in-wealth-by-race-and-ethnicity-in-the-2019-survey-of-consumer-finances-20200928.html https://www.federalreserve.gov/econres/notes/feds-notes/disp...
- torstenvl 4y ago
  African Americans make up 12.7% of the undergraduate population. https://pnpi.org/black-students/ https://pnpi.org/black-students/ They only make up 1.17% of the undergraduate population enrolled in a CS major. Either a disproportionately low number of African American undergrads are choosing to enroll in CS majors (interest), or universities are disproportionately refusing to enroll such students (in which case your argument about racism may have some merit). Do you have any evidence that universities are refusing to allow African American students to enroll in CS?
  - ProfessorLayton 4y ago
    Your own link states that most (72%) black students received Pell Grants — grants that are given based on financial need. As cited in my previous comment, the wealth gaps created by racist housing policies can be across generations. It was less than a generation ago that computers commonly cost 5-figures, and remained expensive until relatively recently. A good proxy is to look at the continued gap in broadband internet adoption by race, which is also linked to income. PoC are less likely to have a broadband connection at home, and relying more on their smartphone/tablet devices [1]. Educational attainment is also linked to broadband adoption [2]. Historically students haven't been learning to code/coding on their smart devices. Lack of access is not lack of interest. [1] https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/07/16/home-broadband-adoption-computer-ownership-vary-by-race-ethnicity-in-the-u-s/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/07/16/home-broadb... [2] https://www.cpuc.ca.gov/-/media/cpuc-website/files/uploadedfiles/cpucwebsite/content/utilitiesindustries/communications/reports_and_presentations/cdvideobb/bagapanalysis.pdf https://www.cpuc.ca.gov/-/media/cpuc-website/files/uploadedf...
    - torstenvl 4y ago
      You keep bringing up irrelevant distractions. Do you have any evidence at all for your claim that universities are refusing to enroll African American students in CS programs?
      - ProfessorLayton 4y ago
        I never claimed that. You did. I refuted that it was "vastly different levels of interest" and supported my counterclaims while you did not.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
        torstenvl 4y ago
        That is false, and you know it to be false. My claim is that they are choosing not to enroll in CS programs, i.e., that they have less interest in CS programs. You dispute my claim, by which it must necessarily follow that they are somehow disproportionately prevented from enrolling despite wanting to enroll. Where is your evidence of that?