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Your comment makes no sense in the context of Menno’s work. He’s a bodybuilder, coaches bodybuilders, and his content targets bodybuilders. You’ve just built a

Your comment makes no sense in the context of Menno’s work. He’s a bodybuilder, coaches bodybuilders, and his content targets bodybuilders. You’ve just built a straw man argument. When you say “then you stop eating carbs to get shredded” is just bollocks. No real bodybuilder stops eating carbs to get shredded. We (I say we because I am a contest bodybuilder) tend to reduce carb intake during a cut or show prep because it’s the easiest way to get calories down without hitting hunger levels too bad. And keeping protein and fat at reasonable levels are needed to maintain muscle mass and okay health markers. Heck, even fat will get to an unsustainable level when you’re trying to make it to stage sub 8% of body fat

hackernewds 4y ago
You seem to know about this subject. What is your take on this article then?
- ltadeut 4y ago
  If I look at it through the lens of the last 10-years of "science-based" strength/bodybuilding training, there's nothing surprising there. # On rest intervals His description is pretty spot on. The rest times mostly affect the amount of volume you can do (volume is generally defined as #reps x #sets, though I prefer #reps x #sets x weight). That's actually something really useful to know because it allows you to get the required stimulus when you are in an inadequate situation. For example, imagine someone generally trains their legs with barbell back squats and hacks squats. The weight would be fairly high for those lifts. But if you find yourself in a situation where you don't have access or can't use those lifts (injury), you can leverage the lower rest periods to hammer the shit out of your quads with leg extensions or lunges and get the stimulus you need. It doesn't mean you should only do that though. It's pretty well accepted that at some point movements become "stale": your body doesn't recover that well after performing the same movement for long periods (e.g. >6 months), so you need to rotate them out. Not because "the muscle got used to it", but because your joints are aching. Again, understanding how to manipulate rest periods can aid in this rotation. Another thing is time availability. Doing squats and resting 5 minutes might be fine for muscle growth, but you only have so much time you can spend at the gym. So you need to balance that out as well when you are training. # On training frequency Nothing to say there, targeting a muscle more than once a week is pretty much a given. Even ignoring the need for frequent growth stimuli, you can reason about hitting the same body part multiple times a week this way: Say your chest max recoverable volume (MRV) is around 15 hard (0-3 reps from failure) sets a week. If you only train chest once a week, how good can your chest session possibly be when you have to do so much work? 0-3 reps from failure is extremely hard. If you do 4 sets on the incline bench, 4 sets on the flat bench, you still got another 7 sets to go on other exercises. The accumulated fatigue throughout the session makes it highly unlikely you'll really be able to push your chest significantly for the remaining sets. Why not split your training between 2 sessions? 8 sets on one day, and then another 7 sets later in the week. You'll get much higher quality sessions like that because fatigue won't be crushing you. # On training intensity / failure Again, nothing revelatory there. It's well accepted that you want to train close to failure but not necessarily go to failure. That's why auto-regulated training talks about 0-3 reps in reserve (RIR). I've alluded to this in the previous section but I should make it clear: Every exercise you pick has a signal-to-fatigue ratio (referred to as SFR in the literature). Going to failure may be a good way to drive muscle growth, but it's extremely fatiguing. You can't possible survive a 5 week training block if you're going to failure in every single session and exercise. Once you understand that and that multiple rep-ranges work, you can pair exercises that are high-signal and high-fatigue (e.g., barbell squats, deadlifts) with exercises that are high-signal and low fatigue (e.g., leg extensions, leg curls). If you're dieting down and are energy depleted, it would then make sense to avoid high-fatigue exercises like squats (or at least minimize the amount of volume dedicated to them). A common approach is to increase closeness to failure as you progress through the training block, reserving failure or at least 0 reps in reserve to the last week of the cycle. After that you hop on a deload week and drop fatigue to start a new block. You may also want to vary rep ranges and RIR targets because after a while training in the same ranges may get boring :) # What I disagree with Menno I don't agree with the part about getting a pump and soreness. I agree that their presence is NOT necessary to cause muscle growth, but in my experience (and other people in the industry like the folks at Revive Stronger and Renaissance periodization), pumps and soreness are good indicators that a training session was stimulative enough.
  - puszczyk 4y ago
    Thank you for taking time to write the detailed answer. Not my subject, but I enjoy reading such takes on HN.
  - asoneth 4y ago
    As someone who knows nothing about this field your post was particularly enlightening. I am especially grateful that you have defined most of the terms and acronyms you used.
  - rcarr 4y ago
    Nervous system stress/spinal load also plays a big part in maximising the amount of stress you an out a muscle group under. Louie Simmons famously has all his lifters do a fuck ton of belt squats because you can do way more of them than regular back squats because there’s no stress on the lower back and less stress on the nervous system as a result. I guess this is pretty similar to what you’re saying with the fatigue-signal stuff though.
    - _trackno5 4y ago
      I’d say the belt stuff is more likely due to stability. Your nervous system limits power output when your body is not stable. That’s why bozo ball squats are just freaking dumb But the belt totally helps with lower back fatigue for sure!
  - _trackno5 4y ago
    I just realised I mistyped: SFR is stimulus-to-fatigue ratio, not signal-to-fatigue ratio. Guess I had too many meetings talking about observability today lol
  - sul_tasto 4y ago
    I’ve read Starting Strength, which I thought was excellent. Can you recommend any other resources?
    - _trackno5 4y ago
concerned_4u 4y ago
[dead]
halfmatthalfcat 4y ago
You don't have to stop eating carbs, but not eating carbs has the possibility[1] to save off some gluconeogenesis by subbing fat for muscle while in ketosis, retaining more gains from the bulk. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1373635/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1373635/
- tsimionescu 4y ago
  What kind of fat reserves do you think competition bodybuilders normally have? Also note that dipping below some level of body fat is actively harmful to your body.
  - voytec 4y ago
    Usually it's something between 4 and 8% but I wouldn't call it "reserves". That's already too low.
  - _trackno5 4y ago
    Like voytec said, 4-8%. Though i’s argue it’a likely in the higher end for naturals. It’s not sustainable and it’s definitely not healthy for long periods. That’s why we do it only in contest season. You do your shows and get back to something reasonable in terms of body fat. Most people only compete every few years
- _trackno5 4y ago
  Frankly that makes no sense in the context of a bodybuilder. All of those studies listed in the review you posted are targeting either overweight people or "normal weight", both miles away from the body composition of a bodybuilder. You can't take that and try to apply the same results to someone who's got their diet, exercise, sleep, daily steps, even salt intake dialed in like a bodybuilder does. We all accept there will be muscle loss when you diet down. Heck, most natural bodybuilders probably have to drop 10kg before they are ready to go on stage.
  - halfmatthalfcat 4y ago
HelloNurse 4y ago
> Your comment makes no sense in the context of Menno’s work. He’s a bodybuilder, coaches bodybuilders, and his content targets bodybuilders. I'd say that participants of studies in which they are asked to repeat well-defined weightlifting exercises with accurately measured rests and repetitions are bodybuilders by definition, not "random groups of people".
beaned 4y ago
I don't understand your comment. First you said that cutting carbs to get shredded is bollocks, but then in your very next sentence you said you reduce carb intake during a cut.
- _trackno5 4y ago
  People associate carbs as a prerequisite for getting shredded (like grandparent). It’s not. It’s just a way that works well and at some point you will have to cut the carbs because there’s nothing else to cut.

hackernewds 4y ago

You seem to know about this subject. What is your take on this article then?

ltadeut 4y ago
If I look at it through the lens of the last 10-years of "science-based" strength/bodybuilding training, there's nothing surprising there. # On rest intervals His description is pretty spot on. The rest times mostly affect the amount of volume you can do (volume is generally defined as #reps x #sets, though I prefer #reps x #sets x weight). That's actually something really useful to know because it allows you to get the required stimulus when you are in an inadequate situation. For example, imagine someone generally trains their legs with barbell back squats and hacks squats. The weight would be fairly high for those lifts. But if you find yourself in a situation where you don't have access or can't use those lifts (injury), you can leverage the lower rest periods to hammer the shit out of your quads with leg extensions or lunges and get the stimulus you need. It doesn't mean you should only do that though. It's pretty well accepted that at some point movements become "stale": your body doesn't recover that well after performing the same movement for long periods (e.g. >6 months), so you need to rotate them out. Not because "the muscle got used to it", but because your joints are aching. Again, understanding how to manipulate rest periods can aid in this rotation. Another thing is time availability. Doing squats and resting 5 minutes might be fine for muscle growth, but you only have so much time you can spend at the gym. So you need to balance that out as well when you are training. # On training frequency Nothing to say there, targeting a muscle more than once a week is pretty much a given. Even ignoring the need for frequent growth stimuli, you can reason about hitting the same body part multiple times a week this way: Say your chest max recoverable volume (MRV) is around 15 hard (0-3 reps from failure) sets a week. If you only train chest once a week, how good can your chest session possibly be when you have to do so much work? 0-3 reps from failure is extremely hard. If you do 4 sets on the incline bench, 4 sets on the flat bench, you still got another 7 sets to go on other exercises. The accumulated fatigue throughout the session makes it highly unlikely you'll really be able to push your chest significantly for the remaining sets. Why not split your training between 2 sessions? 8 sets on one day, and then another 7 sets later in the week. You'll get much higher quality sessions like that because fatigue won't be crushing you. # On training intensity / failure Again, nothing revelatory there. It's well accepted that you want to train close to failure but not necessarily go to failure. That's why auto-regulated training talks about 0-3 reps in reserve (RIR). I've alluded to this in the previous section but I should make it clear: Every exercise you pick has a signal-to-fatigue ratio (referred to as SFR in the literature). Going to failure may be a good way to drive muscle growth, but it's extremely fatiguing. You can't possible survive a 5 week training block if you're going to failure in every single session and exercise. Once you understand that and that multiple rep-ranges work, you can pair exercises that are high-signal and high-fatigue (e.g., barbell squats, deadlifts) with exercises that are high-signal and low fatigue (e.g., leg extensions, leg curls). If you're dieting down and are energy depleted, it would then make sense to avoid high-fatigue exercises like squats (or at least minimize the amount of volume dedicated to them). A common approach is to increase closeness to failure as you progress through the training block, reserving failure or at least 0 reps in reserve to the last week of the cycle. After that you hop on a deload week and drop fatigue to start a new block. You may also want to vary rep ranges and RIR targets because after a while training in the same ranges may get boring :) # What I disagree with Menno I don't agree with the part about getting a pump and soreness. I agree that their presence is NOT necessary to cause muscle growth, but in my experience (and other people in the industry like the folks at Revive Stronger and Renaissance periodization), pumps and soreness are good indicators that a training session was stimulative enough.
- puszczyk 4y ago
  Thank you for taking time to write the detailed answer. Not my subject, but I enjoy reading such takes on HN.
- asoneth 4y ago
  As someone who knows nothing about this field your post was particularly enlightening. I am especially grateful that you have defined most of the terms and acronyms you used.
- rcarr 4y ago
  Nervous system stress/spinal load also plays a big part in maximising the amount of stress you an out a muscle group under. Louie Simmons famously has all his lifters do a fuck ton of belt squats because you can do way more of them than regular back squats because there’s no stress on the lower back and less stress on the nervous system as a result. I guess this is pretty similar to what you’re saying with the fatigue-signal stuff though.
  - _trackno5 4y ago
    I’d say the belt stuff is more likely due to stability. Your nervous system limits power output when your body is not stable. That’s why bozo ball squats are just freaking dumb But the belt totally helps with lower back fatigue for sure!
- _trackno5 4y ago
  I just realised I mistyped: SFR is stimulus-to-fatigue ratio, not signal-to-fatigue ratio. Guess I had too many meetings talking about observability today lol
- sul_tasto 4y ago
  I’ve read Starting Strength, which I thought was excellent. Can you recommend any other resources?
  - _trackno5 4y ago

concerned_4u 4y ago

[dead]

halfmatthalfcat 4y ago

You don't have to stop eating carbs, but not eating carbs has the possibility[1] to save off some gluconeogenesis by subbing fat for muscle while in ketosis, retaining more gains from the bulk. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1373635/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1373635/

tsimionescu 4y ago
What kind of fat reserves do you think competition bodybuilders normally have? Also note that dipping below some level of body fat is actively harmful to your body.
- voytec 4y ago
  Usually it's something between 4 and 8% but I wouldn't call it "reserves". That's already too low.
- _trackno5 4y ago
  Like voytec said, 4-8%. Though i’s argue it’a likely in the higher end for naturals. It’s not sustainable and it’s definitely not healthy for long periods. That’s why we do it only in contest season. You do your shows and get back to something reasonable in terms of body fat. Most people only compete every few years
_trackno5 4y ago
Frankly that makes no sense in the context of a bodybuilder. All of those studies listed in the review you posted are targeting either overweight people or "normal weight", both miles away from the body composition of a bodybuilder. You can't take that and try to apply the same results to someone who's got their diet, exercise, sleep, daily steps, even salt intake dialed in like a bodybuilder does. We all accept there will be muscle loss when you diet down. Heck, most natural bodybuilders probably have to drop 10kg before they are ready to go on stage.
- halfmatthalfcat 4y ago

HelloNurse 4y ago

> Your comment makes no sense in the context of Menno’s work. He’s a bodybuilder, coaches bodybuilders, and his content targets bodybuilders. I'd say that participants of studies in which they are asked to repeat well-defined weightlifting exercises with accurately measured rests and repetitions are bodybuilders by definition, not "random groups of people".

beaned 4y ago

I don't understand your comment. First you said that cutting carbs to get shredded is bollocks, but then in your very next sentence you said you reduce carb intake during a cut.

_trackno5 4y ago
People associate carbs as a prerequisite for getting shredded (like grandparent). It’s not. It’s just a way that works well and at some point you will have to cut the carbs because there’s nothing else to cut.