4 ms·

This ignores the rampant racist/sexist comments often made on IRC/BBS, which were a reflection of society. Anyone who spent a good amount of time in these commu

This ignores the rampant racist/sexist comments often made on IRC/BBS, which were a reflection of society. Anyone who spent a good amount of time in these communities know it was a problem - hence why some very small invite-only communities were formed. So yes, the idealism is there. No one knows who you identify as in a text channel unless you let them. But it does not remove the fact that these communities could often have bigoted pockets.

parasense 4y ago
> This ignores the rampant racist/sexist comments often made on IRC/BBS Nice straw man argument you got there... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man But I'll take the bait... > Anyone who spent a good amount of time in these communities know it was a problem... Interesting. I've been on IRC for decades, and while any online forum has the feature where trolls are capable of making awful remarks for the lulz, it's been my observation those are outliers, and NOT an actual problem for focused communities. > So yes, the idealism is there. No one knows who you identify as in a text channel unless you let them. hrm... yeah, there is a dichotomy there, but not the false kind, more of the ying/yang kind. The same feature that fosters diversity is the same feature that allows for trolls. > But it does not remove the fact that these communities could often have bigoted pockets. There is no reason to practice fatalism here, or characterise rare events as common place. This is probably a variation of another fallacy called reductio-absurdism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum Ultimately IRC has admins, moderators, and the ability to mute other people. That is why good prevails over evil on IRC, and why IRC has remained the place for smart people to connect online for so so very long... longer than any other mode of chat communication.
- fsociety 4y ago
  Sure, I am being hyperbolic and should not be when presenting my perspective. Use the word rampant was misleading. My point is that people hail these communities as the golden child of diversity in a community, but back in the late 90s and early 00s internet nerd culture was anything but diverse. Again, I am not saying diversity did not exist, but if you were to measure the amount of say.. white males vs other groups on IRC we all know which way it skews. My other point was that, back then it was common in internet culture to throw offensive, racist, and sexist terms/jokes back-and-forth with no recourse as a form of trolling. The people using these terms may not even be racist/sexist, but from the perspective of a minority there is no difference. I enjoyed being on IRC, to the point where most of my free time was spent gaming but then shifted to just chatting with folks on IRC. It was great. I miss it dearly. But I do not see it as some diversity golden child we should all aspire to.
- PuppyTailWags 4y ago
  I've been on IRC for a similar amount of time, sexual harassment was always done in private so you wouldn't have seen it on main rooms, and victims were often newbies who didn't know reporting channels or didn't feel empowered to report, being the noobs and all. (Think randomly PMing women to ask for feet/boob pictures, or asking to be PMd to help debug something and then use it as an opportunity to pressure for sext) I used to be part of multiple IRC channels that swear up and down that they're not a bigoted/political community they're just a focused technical chat about .NET or something, and then spout off calling things "faggotry" every day with no self-awareness whatsoever.
  - FFRefresh 4y ago
    If one wanted to substantiate some of your claims here to be convinced of the problem you suggest, what's the best way to do that? What are the names of the IRC channels you were part of that said they weren't bigoted but used homophobic slurs every day?
    - PuppyTailWags 4y ago
      I'm just responding to one flimsy anecdote with my own flimsy anecdote. You can believe me or not. But I would suggest you ask yourself why you responded to me with this and not the guy I responded to, who also didn't provide evidence where they were.
    - DonaldPShimoda 4y ago
      Just for other people's benefit: this comment is an excellent example of the kind of harassment women and others face online. When they try to relate their lived experiences, they are questioned relentlessly and asked for proof of things that obviously cannot be proven in a conclusive manner. (And if any proof is given, the goalposts are typically moved.) If your first response to someone saying "I was harassed" is "I need objective evidence before I believe that this could possibly have happened", you're part of the problem.
      - FFRefresh 4y ago
venatiodecorus 4y ago
i'm curious how much of this was actual racism vs spouting off a specific n-word in order to anger as many people as possible via minimal effort
- fsociety 4y ago
  Yes I believe this is the case, and was general internet culture in those days. Many offensive words would be thrown around without understanding of what they meant. But still, from the perspective of a minority, the intention probably does not make a difference to the experience.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
FFRefresh 4y ago
As an anecdote, I was very active in those communities/networks back in the day, and I don't remember the rampant racism/sexism you suggest. The main vector that people demeaned others on was based on technical skills.

parasense 4y ago

> This ignores the rampant racist/sexist comments often made on IRC/BBS Nice straw man argument you got there... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man But I'll take the bait... > Anyone who spent a good amount of time in these communities know it was a problem... Interesting. I've been on IRC for decades, and while any online forum has the feature where trolls are capable of making awful remarks for the lulz, it's been my observation those are outliers, and NOT an actual problem for focused communities. > So yes, the idealism is there. No one knows who you identify as in a text channel unless you let them. hrm... yeah, there is a dichotomy there, but not the false kind, more of the ying/yang kind. The same feature that fosters diversity is the same feature that allows for trolls. > But it does not remove the fact that these communities could often have bigoted pockets. There is no reason to practice fatalism here, or characterise rare events as common place. This is probably a variation of another fallacy called reductio-absurdism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum Ultimately IRC has admins, moderators, and the ability to mute other people. That is why good prevails over evil on IRC, and why IRC has remained the place for smart people to connect online for so so very long... longer than any other mode of chat communication.

fsociety 4y ago
Sure, I am being hyperbolic and should not be when presenting my perspective. Use the word rampant was misleading. My point is that people hail these communities as the golden child of diversity in a community, but back in the late 90s and early 00s internet nerd culture was anything but diverse. Again, I am not saying diversity did not exist, but if you were to measure the amount of say.. white males vs other groups on IRC we all know which way it skews. My other point was that, back then it was common in internet culture to throw offensive, racist, and sexist terms/jokes back-and-forth with no recourse as a form of trolling. The people using these terms may not even be racist/sexist, but from the perspective of a minority there is no difference. I enjoyed being on IRC, to the point where most of my free time was spent gaming but then shifted to just chatting with folks on IRC. It was great. I miss it dearly. But I do not see it as some diversity golden child we should all aspire to.
PuppyTailWags 4y ago
I've been on IRC for a similar amount of time, sexual harassment was always done in private so you wouldn't have seen it on main rooms, and victims were often newbies who didn't know reporting channels or didn't feel empowered to report, being the noobs and all. (Think randomly PMing women to ask for feet/boob pictures, or asking to be PMd to help debug something and then use it as an opportunity to pressure for sext) I used to be part of multiple IRC channels that swear up and down that they're not a bigoted/political community they're just a focused technical chat about .NET or something, and then spout off calling things "faggotry" every day with no self-awareness whatsoever.
- FFRefresh 4y ago
  If one wanted to substantiate some of your claims here to be convinced of the problem you suggest, what's the best way to do that? What are the names of the IRC channels you were part of that said they weren't bigoted but used homophobic slurs every day?
  - PuppyTailWags 4y ago
    I'm just responding to one flimsy anecdote with my own flimsy anecdote. You can believe me or not. But I would suggest you ask yourself why you responded to me with this and not the guy I responded to, who also didn't provide evidence where they were.
  - DonaldPShimoda 4y ago
    Just for other people's benefit: this comment is an excellent example of the kind of harassment women and others face online. When they try to relate their lived experiences, they are questioned relentlessly and asked for proof of things that obviously cannot be proven in a conclusive manner. (And if any proof is given, the goalposts are typically moved.) If your first response to someone saying "I was harassed" is "I need objective evidence before I believe that this could possibly have happened", you're part of the problem.
    - FFRefresh 4y ago

venatiodecorus 4y ago

i'm curious how much of this was actual racism vs spouting off a specific n-word in order to anger as many people as possible via minimal effort

fsociety 4y ago
Yes I believe this is the case, and was general internet culture in those days. Many offensive words would be thrown around without understanding of what they meant. But still, from the perspective of a minority, the intention probably does not make a difference to the experience.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

FFRefresh 4y ago

As an anecdote, I was very active in those communities/networks back in the day, and I don't remember the rampant racism/sexism you suggest. The main vector that people demeaned others on was based on technical skills.