7 ms·

This is the classic excuse. "Bad outcomes aren't the fault of X, you're just doing X wrong" even though X always leads to the same bad outcomes. When an initia

by seneca 4y ago

This is the classic excuse. "Bad outcomes aren't the fault of X, you're just doing X wrong" even though X always leads to the same bad outcomes. When an initiative fails, the solution is rarely to do more of it.

ModernMech 4y ago
> X always leads to the same bad outcome X does not always lead to the same bad outcome here though. That is, DEI initiatives that increase diversity while not lowering the hire bar do exist. That some particular company decided to lower their hiring bar doesn't indicate that DEI initiatives always cause companies to lower their hiring bars.
SpeedilyDamage 4y ago
Except study after study shows that good outcomes result from hiring diverse candidates...
- throwaway894345 4y ago
  My impression is that the mechanism is that racial/gender/etc diversity proxies for some amount of viewpoint diversity, and it's the viewpoint diversity which is improving outcomes. Assuming I'm correct on that point, my strong suspicion is that a lot of DEI programs in the US are not resulting in much more diverse hiring than their peer groups while simultaneously limiting viewpoint diversity pretty considerably (or if they're not limiting the viewpoint diversity of the people they hire, they're limiting the willingness of those people to express diverse views--probably a combination of the two). I'm also vaguely of the impression that at least some research is finding DEI initiatives to be neutral or perhaps even counter-productive, but I'm having a hard time finding those papers--if this is jogging anyone's memory, I would appreciate links.
  - SpeedilyDamage 4y ago
    Just… stop. DEI works when well executed. Accept that. If you want to police DEI initiatives to ensure they’re properly implemented, go for it, but the constant aversion to a so thoroughly researched concept is bordering on flat earther level conspiracy.
    - tristor 4y ago
      > thoroughly researched concept Is this part of the same body of research suffering a replication crisis more broadly? It is? Oh. So, having lots of published “research” that can be linked to by consultants paid to believe it isn’t the same thing as replicable hard science? Nope. Whodathunkit.
      - SpeedilyDamage 4y ago
        Considering all of science is having a replication crisis, you are going full flat earther, then. I really cannot overemphasize how detrimental to your argument what you just wrote is to any thinking human being. Blindly claiming all research, from literally every institution in the world, is both inaccurate and rigged somehow on a widely studied topic, is an insane claim only made when you've given up on the entire concept of rationality. You really would rather throw all of science under the bus before you let black people get an even footing in society, wouldn't you? Incredible.
        tristor 4y ago
        STEM fields don’t have a replication crisis in the same way that humanities do. The issue in STEM fields is that essential elements to replicate (like the code) are not being published, yet the underlying science is solid enough for production technology people rely on every day to be built on it. In the humanities the replication crisis is that a significant amount of published “research” is essentially made up whole cloth. One of these things is not like the other. Also, nice edit calling me racist with zero basis. This behavior, by the way, is why this /entire/ thread exists on HN. DEI zealots will libel, slander, and insult anyone who doesn’t follow their ideology. Criticizing it, even with clear evidence, or pointing out lack of evidence supporting it is treated the same as taking the most extreme position in opposition. You’re ridiculous and you should be ashamed of yourself. Take a breath and reconsider your life choices.
        SpeedilyDamage 4y ago
        [flagged]
John23832 4y ago
If you don't think you can hire better minority candidates, then the implication is that there are no better minority candidates?

by seneca 4y ago

ModernMech 4y ago

> X always leads to the same bad outcome X does not always lead to the same bad outcome here though. That is, DEI initiatives that increase diversity while not lowering the hire bar do exist. That some particular company decided to lower their hiring bar doesn't indicate that DEI initiatives always cause companies to lower their hiring bars.

SpeedilyDamage 4y ago

Except study after study shows that good outcomes result from hiring diverse candidates...

throwaway894345 4y ago
My impression is that the mechanism is that racial/gender/etc diversity proxies for some amount of viewpoint diversity, and it's the viewpoint diversity which is improving outcomes. Assuming I'm correct on that point, my strong suspicion is that a lot of DEI programs in the US are not resulting in much more diverse hiring than their peer groups while simultaneously limiting viewpoint diversity pretty considerably (or if they're not limiting the viewpoint diversity of the people they hire, they're limiting the willingness of those people to express diverse views--probably a combination of the two). I'm also vaguely of the impression that at least some research is finding DEI initiatives to be neutral or perhaps even counter-productive, but I'm having a hard time finding those papers--if this is jogging anyone's memory, I would appreciate links.
- SpeedilyDamage 4y ago
  Just… stop. DEI works when well executed. Accept that. If you want to police DEI initiatives to ensure they’re properly implemented, go for it, but the constant aversion to a so thoroughly researched concept is bordering on flat earther level conspiracy.
  - tristor 4y ago
    > thoroughly researched concept Is this part of the same body of research suffering a replication crisis more broadly? It is? Oh. So, having lots of published “research” that can be linked to by consultants paid to believe it isn’t the same thing as replicable hard science? Nope. Whodathunkit.
    - SpeedilyDamage 4y ago
      Considering all of science is having a replication crisis, you are going full flat earther, then. I really cannot overemphasize how detrimental to your argument what you just wrote is to any thinking human being. Blindly claiming all research, from literally every institution in the world, is both inaccurate and rigged somehow on a widely studied topic, is an insane claim only made when you've given up on the entire concept of rationality. You really would rather throw all of science under the bus before you let black people get an even footing in society, wouldn't you? Incredible.
      - tristor 4y ago
        STEM fields don’t have a replication crisis in the same way that humanities do. The issue in STEM fields is that essential elements to replicate (like the code) are not being published, yet the underlying science is solid enough for production technology people rely on every day to be built on it. In the humanities the replication crisis is that a significant amount of published “research” is essentially made up whole cloth. One of these things is not like the other. Also, nice edit calling me racist with zero basis. This behavior, by the way, is why this /entire/ thread exists on HN. DEI zealots will libel, slander, and insult anyone who doesn’t follow their ideology. Criticizing it, even with clear evidence, or pointing out lack of evidence supporting it is treated the same as taking the most extreme position in opposition. You’re ridiculous and you should be ashamed of yourself. Take a breath and reconsider your life choices.
        SpeedilyDamage 4y ago
        [flagged]

John23832 4y ago

If you don't think you can hire better minority candidates, then the implication is that there are no better minority candidates?