4 ms·

Would you care to share what classes of people lack ability in software engineering, which is a relatively high-paying job? Any racial or ethnic groups? Men/w

by jawns 4y ago

Would you care to share what classes of people lack ability in software engineering, which is a relatively high-paying job? Any racial or ethnic groups? Men/women? Veteran status? If you're not willing to name which purported classes of people have low ability in this area, I don't think it's worthwhile to entertain your line of argument.

torstenvl 4y ago
Your omission of "and interest" is conspicuous. If you aren't going to engage honestly, don't engage at all. There's no place on HN for that kind of behavior.
- jawns 4y ago
  Okay, which classes of people aren't interested in a relatively cushy, relatively high-paying job? Are blacks and Hispanics, underrepresented in tech, just not interested in programming, or is there maybe a chance that they have the same ability and interest, but less access? Overt discrimination does not even need to exist here, but if there are systemic factors that disadvantage some demographic groups, that can also affect access.
  - torstenvl 4y ago
    African-Americans make up a little more than 1% of all CS program enrollments (13 out of 1113, or 1.17%). Not graduation - enrollment. There are some universities where enrollment in certain majors is competitive, but they are the exception, not the rule. So yes, I'm inclined to believe this is indicative of vastly different levels of interest. https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Nationally-the-number-of-Computer-Science-degrees-awarded-by-race-and-gender-from-1981_fig3_317351499 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Nationally-the-number-of...
    - ProfessorLayton 4y ago
      No, it isn't "vastly different levels of interest" it's straight up racism. Racist housing policies discriminated against PoC specifically, and many of these bylaws are still on the books. Housing policies are relevant because the largest component of wealth is homeownership [1], and wealth is the largest indicator in educational attainment. The best schools and educational opportunities have historically been kept from PoC in a very explicit manner. It's no coincidence that the best schools are almost always in the wealthiest neighborhoods that aren't very diverse. [1] https://www.federalreserve.gov/econres/notes/feds-notes/disparities-in-wealth-by-race-and-ethnicity-in-the-2019-survey-of-consumer-finances-20200928.html https://www.federalreserve.gov/econres/notes/feds-notes/disp...
      - torstenvl 4y ago
        African Americans make up 12.7% of the undergraduate population. https://pnpi.org/black-students/ https://pnpi.org/black-students/ They only make up 1.17% of the undergraduate population enrolled in a CS major. Either a disproportionately low number of African American undergrads are choosing to enroll in CS majors (interest), or universities are disproportionately refusing to enroll such students (in which case your argument about racism may have some merit). Do you have any evidence that universities are refusing to allow African American students to enroll in CS?
        ProfessorLayton 4y ago
        Your own link states that most (72%) black students received Pell Grants — grants that are given based on financial need. As cited in my previous comment, the wealth gaps created by racist housing policies can be across generations. It was less than a generation ago that computers commonly cost 5-figures, and remained expensive until relatively recently. A good proxy is to look at the continued gap in broadband internet adoption by race, which is also linked to income. PoC are less likely to have a broadband connection at home, and relying more on their smartphone/tablet devices [1]. Educational attainment is also linked to broadband adoption [2]. Historically students haven't been learning to code/coding on their smart devices. Lack of access is not lack of interest. [1] https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/07/16/home-broadband-adoption-computer-ownership-vary-by-race-ethnicity-in-the-u-s/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/07/16/home-broadb... [2] https://www.cpuc.ca.gov/-/media/cpuc-website/files/uploadedfiles/cpucwebsite/content/utilitiesindustries/communications/reports_and_presentations/cdvideobb/bagapanalysis.pdf https://www.cpuc.ca.gov/-/media/cpuc-website/files/uploadedf...
foobarbaz33 4y ago
If 80% of the doctors in an geographical area belong to race B then about 80% of doctors should be of race B. Assuming everyone is roughly of equal ability/experience and no hiring biases are at play. Imbalances need to be measured against the population of doctors, not the general population. The question should be why few people of a particular race go to medical school. The biases need to be addressed at the root. If you focus your bias search at the end-leaf points you are making a blunder. A blunder that can even hurt people for the opposite reasons because there are "too many" of race X relative to local population. Some minorities (Asians) are negatively affected by this lazy anti-bias action.

by jawns 4y ago

torstenvl 4y ago

Your omission of "and interest" is conspicuous. If you aren't going to engage honestly, don't engage at all. There's no place on HN for that kind of behavior.

jawns 4y ago
Okay, which classes of people aren't interested in a relatively cushy, relatively high-paying job? Are blacks and Hispanics, underrepresented in tech, just not interested in programming, or is there maybe a chance that they have the same ability and interest, but less access? Overt discrimination does not even need to exist here, but if there are systemic factors that disadvantage some demographic groups, that can also affect access.
- torstenvl 4y ago
  African-Americans make up a little more than 1% of all CS program enrollments (13 out of 1113, or 1.17%). Not graduation - enrollment. There are some universities where enrollment in certain majors is competitive, but they are the exception, not the rule. So yes, I'm inclined to believe this is indicative of vastly different levels of interest. https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Nationally-the-number-of-Computer-Science-degrees-awarded-by-race-and-gender-from-1981_fig3_317351499 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Nationally-the-number-of...
  - ProfessorLayton 4y ago
    No, it isn't "vastly different levels of interest" it's straight up racism. Racist housing policies discriminated against PoC specifically, and many of these bylaws are still on the books. Housing policies are relevant because the largest component of wealth is homeownership [1], and wealth is the largest indicator in educational attainment. The best schools and educational opportunities have historically been kept from PoC in a very explicit manner. It's no coincidence that the best schools are almost always in the wealthiest neighborhoods that aren't very diverse. [1] https://www.federalreserve.gov/econres/notes/feds-notes/disparities-in-wealth-by-race-and-ethnicity-in-the-2019-survey-of-consumer-finances-20200928.html https://www.federalreserve.gov/econres/notes/feds-notes/disp...
    - torstenvl 4y ago
      African Americans make up 12.7% of the undergraduate population. https://pnpi.org/black-students/ https://pnpi.org/black-students/ They only make up 1.17% of the undergraduate population enrolled in a CS major. Either a disproportionately low number of African American undergrads are choosing to enroll in CS majors (interest), or universities are disproportionately refusing to enroll such students (in which case your argument about racism may have some merit). Do you have any evidence that universities are refusing to allow African American students to enroll in CS?
      - ProfessorLayton 4y ago
        Your own link states that most (72%) black students received Pell Grants — grants that are given based on financial need. As cited in my previous comment, the wealth gaps created by racist housing policies can be across generations. It was less than a generation ago that computers commonly cost 5-figures, and remained expensive until relatively recently. A good proxy is to look at the continued gap in broadband internet adoption by race, which is also linked to income. PoC are less likely to have a broadband connection at home, and relying more on their smartphone/tablet devices [1]. Educational attainment is also linked to broadband adoption [2]. Historically students haven't been learning to code/coding on their smart devices. Lack of access is not lack of interest. [1] https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/07/16/home-broadband-adoption-computer-ownership-vary-by-race-ethnicity-in-the-u-s/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/07/16/home-broadb... [2] https://www.cpuc.ca.gov/-/media/cpuc-website/files/uploadedfiles/cpucwebsite/content/utilitiesindustries/communications/reports_and_presentations/cdvideobb/bagapanalysis.pdf https://www.cpuc.ca.gov/-/media/cpuc-website/files/uploadedf...

foobarbaz33 4y ago

If 80% of the doctors in an geographical area belong to race B then about 80% of doctors should be of race B. Assuming everyone is roughly of equal ability/experience and no hiring biases are at play. Imbalances need to be measured against the population of doctors, not the general population. The question should be why few people of a particular race go to medical school. The biases need to be addressed at the root. If you focus your bias search at the end-leaf points you are making a blunder. A blunder that can even hurt people for the opposite reasons because there are "too many" of race X relative to local population. Some minorities (Asians) are negatively affected by this lazy anti-bias action.