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Interesting read: “Now, it’s not that training to failure is a complete waste of effort. Some research finds training to failure does increase muscle growth com

Interesting read: “Now, it’s not that training to failure is a complete waste of effort. Some research finds training to failure does increase muscle growth compared to the same amount of sets not taken to failure. The benefit seems to simply be the result of the extra reps you do, as completing the same repetition volume by adding more submaximal sets can achieve the same amount of muscle growth. And there is a big cost to the beneficial effect of training to failure. Training to failure greatly increases the amount of fatigue you induce and the subsequent recovery time your muscles need.”

raverbashing 4y ago
This is not really 'unconventional wisdom' to be honest (maybe in the 'bro-science' circles) However, at the same time, you're not getting hypertrophy from too many reps at a low % of 1RM (let's say, under 30%) Edit: I can accept the 30% they give at the article, that's not such a low rep load (before the 50% I had there) And of course you can train to failure at 30% - the number of repetitions around 35 as it can be seen in the quoted article in fig 4. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3404827/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3404827/
- foruhar 4y ago
  I once had physical therapist who got quite far in the amateur natural body building world by only lifting 1lb weights. He was getting a PhD in Anatomy(!) and wanted to demonstrate that you don't need to lift heavy to get hypertrophy. Although he did not recommend this approach as the most time-efficient, he emphasized that gains can be made at the extreme end of the low weight-high volume spectrum.
- crazygringo 4y ago
  What you say directly contradicts the article. Do you have scientific studies to contrast against theirs, since the whole point of the article is to contrast intuitive "broscience" against what studies actually show?
jghn 4y ago
A long time ago I remember reading, probably on misc.fitness.weights or something like that, that the lay crowds misunderstood “to failure”, and that it was intended to mean “until you can’t maintain perfect form”. No idea if there was ever a shred of scientific method behind that statement but it struck me as good common sense wisdom anyways.
- SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
  > A long time ago I remember reading, probably on misc.fitness.weights or something like that, that the lay crowds misunderstood “to failure”, and that it was intended to mean “until you can’t maintain perfect form”. That seems funny to me. While someone's form breaking down leads to inefficiencies in specific muscle targeting and / or an increased chance of injury I think that approach would end up leading to people bailing when things start to get hard. I've seen a lot of people never put additional weight on the bar because they were afraid of their form breaking down when in reality measured incremental load increases are what helps makes one big and strong.
  - debacle 4y ago
    A good example of "to failure" is when you can't perform a lift symmetrically, or you find yourself cheating by e.g. moving your elbows, lifting your heels, etc.
    - SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
      So the idea is that the minute you're moving your elbows you're no longer getting any training benefit from the activity?
      - vidarh 4y ago
        I believe the thinking is more that you're taking an injury risk that gain you nothing compared to stopping and resting, and doing another set once recovered if you want more volume. Because injury will set you back far more than missing out on a few reps.
nordsieck 4y ago
> “Now, it’s not that training to failure is a complete waste of effort. Some research finds training to failure does increase muscle growth compared to the same amount of sets not taken to failure. The benefit seems to simply be the result of the extra reps you do, as completing the same repetition volume by adding more submaximal sets can achieve the same amount of muscle growth. And there is a big cost to the beneficial effect of training to failure. Training to failure greatly increases the amount of fatigue you induce and the subsequent recovery time your muscles need.” My understanding is that there is a pretty big asterisk here: for the submaximal sets to be effective, they need to get close to failure. You're not going to be very effective doing sets with 10 reps in reserve. But the thing is that beginners typically aren't very good at gauging how may reps they actually have in the tank. There have been a number of experiments where people were asked to rate how close they were to failure. And then they were asked to actually go to failure. And everyone underestimated - sometimes by quite a lot. So, for people with experience in the gym, this is probably good advice. But I think for newbies, going to failure can be beneficial just because the directions are so robust - people are much less likely to plateau for mysterious reasons.
goldfeld 4y ago
I have been building large upper-body muscles with resistance body weight training on the pool. That means pushups essentially, but the steps-area of the pool let me do them with full hanging body weight and with many wide arm spreads. It's important to have variations in how to position the pushups. I do 30-70 reps depending on difficulty of arm position, usually two or three sets a day max, each set can be a different position. When I feel strong I do reps slowly both on ascent and descent. Due to my flexibiility (a very important factor in having elongated shape big muscles in pecs etc), I also do triceps also in many widths by putting my hands behind me at the pool border and lifting my weight; it is very demanding exercise, also works back and shoulders. However the most important tip no one realizes for growing muscle, for having resistance, for having tonus and for a real fast recovery comes from India. Apply oil to body (preferrably all of body, leave for 40+ minutes as you sit or meditate, listen to music; use old clothing and wash it separately, oil trashes and stains all, and it quickly ruins any stretch fiber and elastics bands on shorts etc). Coconut oil gives the most mass, good for hot season. Ginger oil good for winter, get south american Buriti oil if you can (mix some drops to coconut, use with utmost caution, observe the effects, how it makes you agitated etc, never use it in summer), brazilian indians used it for going to war, it makes muscles really bulge, The greek used oil for wrestling matches too, and for looking strong. Oil is not all about the shiny effect, it improves muscles tremendously. I would compare the effect of not applying oil to the muscle parts after a workout to not eating any protein after a workout. It's such a dramatic effect.
- maerF0x0 4y ago
  You're gonna have to cite something other than the exact fallacy the article talks about
  - goldfeld 4y ago
    I thank thee, I suppose, for not engaging with a downvote like the 4 others in quick succession, and instead doing it with a reply. It seems I bristled the conventional perspective of HN with my anecdotal experience. Of course, anyone could buy some bit of coconut oil and try once, and it'd explain it better than a citation. Call it reproducing study results, I could offer many medical citations, it is true, even western ones, but the alternative focus of them would possibly attract even more condescension and people mentally labelling my comments as if I was making an argument for using black magic to attract riches into your life.

raverbashing 4y ago

This is not really 'unconventional wisdom' to be honest (maybe in the 'bro-science' circles) However, at the same time, you're not getting hypertrophy from too many reps at a low % of 1RM (let's say, under 30%) Edit: I can accept the 30% they give at the article, that's not such a low rep load (before the 50% I had there) And of course you can train to failure at 30% - the number of repetitions around 35 as it can be seen in the quoted article in fig 4. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3404827/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3404827/

foruhar 4y ago
I once had physical therapist who got quite far in the amateur natural body building world by only lifting 1lb weights. He was getting a PhD in Anatomy(!) and wanted to demonstrate that you don't need to lift heavy to get hypertrophy. Although he did not recommend this approach as the most time-efficient, he emphasized that gains can be made at the extreme end of the low weight-high volume spectrum.
crazygringo 4y ago
What you say directly contradicts the article. Do you have scientific studies to contrast against theirs, since the whole point of the article is to contrast intuitive "broscience" against what studies actually show?

jghn 4y ago

A long time ago I remember reading, probably on misc.fitness.weights or something like that, that the lay crowds misunderstood “to failure”, and that it was intended to mean “until you can’t maintain perfect form”. No idea if there was ever a shred of scientific method behind that statement but it struck me as good common sense wisdom anyways.

SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
> A long time ago I remember reading, probably on misc.fitness.weights or something like that, that the lay crowds misunderstood “to failure”, and that it was intended to mean “until you can’t maintain perfect form”. That seems funny to me. While someone's form breaking down leads to inefficiencies in specific muscle targeting and / or an increased chance of injury I think that approach would end up leading to people bailing when things start to get hard. I've seen a lot of people never put additional weight on the bar because they were afraid of their form breaking down when in reality measured incremental load increases are what helps makes one big and strong.
- debacle 4y ago
  A good example of "to failure" is when you can't perform a lift symmetrically, or you find yourself cheating by e.g. moving your elbows, lifting your heels, etc.
  - SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
    So the idea is that the minute you're moving your elbows you're no longer getting any training benefit from the activity?
    - vidarh 4y ago
      I believe the thinking is more that you're taking an injury risk that gain you nothing compared to stopping and resting, and doing another set once recovered if you want more volume. Because injury will set you back far more than missing out on a few reps.

nordsieck 4y ago

> “Now, it’s not that training to failure is a complete waste of effort. Some research finds training to failure does increase muscle growth compared to the same amount of sets not taken to failure. The benefit seems to simply be the result of the extra reps you do, as completing the same repetition volume by adding more submaximal sets can achieve the same amount of muscle growth. And there is a big cost to the beneficial effect of training to failure. Training to failure greatly increases the amount of fatigue you induce and the subsequent recovery time your muscles need.” My understanding is that there is a pretty big asterisk here: for the submaximal sets to be effective, they need to get close to failure. You're not going to be very effective doing sets with 10 reps in reserve. But the thing is that beginners typically aren't very good at gauging how may reps they actually have in the tank. There have been a number of experiments where people were asked to rate how close they were to failure. And then they were asked to actually go to failure. And everyone underestimated - sometimes by quite a lot. So, for people with experience in the gym, this is probably good advice. But I think for newbies, going to failure can be beneficial just because the directions are so robust - people are much less likely to plateau for mysterious reasons.

goldfeld 4y ago

I have been building large upper-body muscles with resistance body weight training on the pool. That means pushups essentially, but the steps-area of the pool let me do them with full hanging body weight and with many wide arm spreads. It's important to have variations in how to position the pushups. I do 30-70 reps depending on difficulty of arm position, usually two or three sets a day max, each set can be a different position. When I feel strong I do reps slowly both on ascent and descent. Due to my flexibiility (a very important factor in having elongated shape big muscles in pecs etc), I also do triceps also in many widths by putting my hands behind me at the pool border and lifting my weight; it is very demanding exercise, also works back and shoulders. However the most important tip no one realizes for growing muscle, for having resistance, for having tonus and for a real fast recovery comes from India. Apply oil to body (preferrably all of body, leave for 40+ minutes as you sit or meditate, listen to music; use old clothing and wash it separately, oil trashes and stains all, and it quickly ruins any stretch fiber and elastics bands on shorts etc). Coconut oil gives the most mass, good for hot season. Ginger oil good for winter, get south american Buriti oil if you can (mix some drops to coconut, use with utmost caution, observe the effects, how it makes you agitated etc, never use it in summer), brazilian indians used it for going to war, it makes muscles really bulge, The greek used oil for wrestling matches too, and for looking strong. Oil is not all about the shiny effect, it improves muscles tremendously. I would compare the effect of not applying oil to the muscle parts after a workout to not eating any protein after a workout. It's such a dramatic effect.

maerF0x0 4y ago
You're gonna have to cite something other than the exact fallacy the article talks about
- goldfeld 4y ago
  I thank thee, I suppose, for not engaging with a downvote like the 4 others in quick succession, and instead doing it with a reply. It seems I bristled the conventional perspective of HN with my anecdotal experience. Of course, anyone could buy some bit of coconut oil and try once, and it'd explain it better than a citation. Call it reproducing study results, I could offer many medical citations, it is true, even western ones, but the alternative focus of them would possibly attract even more condescension and people mentally labelling my comments as if I was making an argument for using black magic to attract riches into your life.