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It's a fallacy to claim US healthcare is not "government funded". Aside from that, Canadian wait times for surgery are substantially worse than the United State

by 0xy 4y ago

It's a fallacy to claim US healthcare is not "government funded". Aside from that, Canadian wait times for surgery are substantially worse than the United States (even before they stopped necessary surgeries during lockdown). [1] The amount of Canadians who visit the United States has increased dramatically over the last 10 years, many of which seek services which are simply not available at all in Canada -- such as specialist cancer treatment. The NHS in the UK, commonly cited as the golden child of government-run healthcare, has the longest wait lists ever with tens of thousands waiting over a year. [2] NHS spending has increased over 6.5% yearly since 2010, with even more massive increases planned for 2024-25. With the massive NHS spending, UK's nurses and doctors are treated like slave cattle. They earn less than 1/3rd of their US counterparts. This indicates administrative incompetence, skyrocketing middle management, waste and fraud. [1] https://fee.org/articles/america-outperforms-canada-in-surgery-wait-times-and-its-not-even-close/ https://fee.org/articles/america-outperforms-canada-in-surge... [2] https://www.bbc.com/news/health-61825071 https://www.bbc.com/news/health-61825071

smcl 4y ago
The NHS in the UK is after a decade of sabotage by a Conservative government who would like nothing more than to see it scrapped and replaced with private healthcare insurance like the US has. As it stands it is a system that is being starved of resources and yet it is still outperforming the US.
- 0xy 4y ago
  Can you explain how 6.5%/year increases in budget over 12 years is "starving"? Also curious how you square "outperforming" with the worst ever waiting times for critical surgeries.
  - smcl 4y ago
    > Can you explain how 6.5%/year increases in budget Yes! It needs more. Glad to have cleared that up. > Also curious how you square "outperforming" ... This is the conclusion of the study in the article you're commenting on
    - 0xy 4y ago
      France increased healthcare spending by 0.3%/year between 2010 and 2019. UK is outpacing France's spending increases by 2,066%. How does the UK need over 20x more spending increases than its close neighbor, exactly?
      - daedalus_f 4y ago
        In 2017 (a year for which I have statistics) France spent 25% more per person on healthcare than the UK. https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/healthcaresystem/articles/howdoesukhealthcarespendingcomparewithothercountries/2019-08-29 https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthan...
        0xy 4y ago
        The initial claim was that healthcare was being "starved", I don't think 20x more than their neighbors in spending increases is "starved". Besides, in 2019, the difference was 4% on a per capita basis -- according to World Bank figures. [1] [2] Probably reflecting the massive difference in spending increases. Given the NHS' planned spending increases from now until 2025, it is very likely the UK will overtake France altogether. NHS spending plans to 2025 that are already agreed outpace inflation by 6 billion pounds. [1] https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.CHEX.PC.CD?locations=FR https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.CHEX.PC.CD?locat... [2] https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.CHEX.PC.CD?locations=GB https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.CHEX.PC.CD?locat...
  - ZeroGravitas 4y ago
    Growing and aging population is the main two. The Financial Times has published stark data showing persistent underinvestment when Conservatives are in power, compared with peer countries.
  - daedalus_f 4y ago
    > In 2017, the UK spent £2,989 per person on healthcare, which was around the median for members of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development: OECD. > of the G7 group of large, developed economies, UK healthcare spending per person was the second-lowest, with the highest spenders being France (£3,737), Germany (£4,432) and the United States (£7,736). > As a percentage of GDP, UK healthcare spending fell from 9.8% in 2013 to 9.6% in 2017. https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/healthcaresystem/articles/howdoesukhealthcarespendingcomparewithothercountries/2019-08-29 https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthan... Health care inflation is significantly higher than the retail price index. The population is aging - older people consume far more health resources than younger people.
  - alexisread 4y ago
    I'm fairly sure that half a min of extra searching for stats would have turned up number of patients treated over that 12 year period - up 12% excluding covid, which pushed waiting lists up massively. https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/audio-video/key-facts-figures-nhs https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/audio-video/key-facts-figures-n... TBH I think most of the recent spending has been in management, rather than where it actually needs to be, so that doesn't help. As mentioned, outperforming here is a relative benchmark vs the US, as stated in the article.
Zagill 4y ago
I find it interesting that whenever socialized healthcare in the US is mentioned, there's always someone eager to point out the failings of Canada's and the UK's systems, yet I never hear mention of any of the other socialized healthcare systems that basically every highly developed nation maintains. I truthfully don't know any statistics on this sort of thing, so I couldn't tell you how good Finland or Greece or Spain are when it comes to healthcare. You'd think there would be relevant criticism to bring up elsewhere if the whole idea is flawed at it's core - otherwise, who cares if Canada's implementation of the concept sucks? Let's learn from their mistakes and others' successes.
- jbarham 4y ago
  Lack of access to doctors is a big issue in Canada. E.g., here's a list of posts on /r/canada about family doctors in the past year: https://www.reddit.com/r/canada/search/?q=family%20doctor&t=year https://www.reddit.com/r/canada/search/?q=family%20doctor&t=... Canada is almost unique among developed countries with government healthcare in that it doesn't also have a parallel private medical system for those who can afford to pay for it. So naturally rich Canadians will often pay for private healthcare in the US. I'm originally Canadian but have lived in Australia for the past 10+ years (in Melbourne). We've never had any issues getting medical appointments with local doctors (usually "bulk billed" so we pay nothing or a very nominal amount for the appointment). But we also have private medical insurance, which is required above a certain age (30 something), that we use occasionally for specialist appointments. But even then the out-of-pocket fee is something like $70 which is fine. Unlike Canada, AFAIK most countries in Europe (e.g., Sweden, France, Spain, Germany) have parallel private medical care, so Canada really is unusual in that respect.
CaptainZapp 4y ago
> The NHS in the UK, commonly cited as the golden child of government-run healthcare Except for government clowns, the ones that still claim Brexit was a splendid idea, and people with vested interests absolutely nobody claims that. At least not since 2008 and austerity when the Tories started wanton destruction of the NHS. There's a massive drive to private healthcare for those that can afford it and the rest is welcome to eat shit. Or to wait 25 hours for an ambulance while lying on the floor with s broken hip.[0] [0] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/ambulance-wait-wales-elizabeth-davies-b2249147.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/ambulance-wait-wal...

by 0xy 4y ago

smcl 4y ago

The NHS in the UK is after a decade of sabotage by a Conservative government who would like nothing more than to see it scrapped and replaced with private healthcare insurance like the US has. As it stands it is a system that is being starved of resources and yet it is still outperforming the US.

0xy 4y ago
Can you explain how 6.5%/year increases in budget over 12 years is "starving"? Also curious how you square "outperforming" with the worst ever waiting times for critical surgeries.
- smcl 4y ago
  > Can you explain how 6.5%/year increases in budget Yes! It needs more. Glad to have cleared that up. > Also curious how you square "outperforming" ... This is the conclusion of the study in the article you're commenting on
  - 0xy 4y ago
    France increased healthcare spending by 0.3%/year between 2010 and 2019. UK is outpacing France's spending increases by 2,066%. How does the UK need over 20x more spending increases than its close neighbor, exactly?
    - daedalus_f 4y ago
      In 2017 (a year for which I have statistics) France spent 25% more per person on healthcare than the UK. https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/healthcaresystem/articles/howdoesukhealthcarespendingcomparewithothercountries/2019-08-29 https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthan...
      - 0xy 4y ago
        The initial claim was that healthcare was being "starved", I don't think 20x more than their neighbors in spending increases is "starved". Besides, in 2019, the difference was 4% on a per capita basis -- according to World Bank figures. [1] [2] Probably reflecting the massive difference in spending increases. Given the NHS' planned spending increases from now until 2025, it is very likely the UK will overtake France altogether. NHS spending plans to 2025 that are already agreed outpace inflation by 6 billion pounds. [1] https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.CHEX.PC.CD?locations=FR https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.CHEX.PC.CD?locat... [2] https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.CHEX.PC.CD?locations=GB https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.CHEX.PC.CD?locat...
- ZeroGravitas 4y ago
  Growing and aging population is the main two. The Financial Times has published stark data showing persistent underinvestment when Conservatives are in power, compared with peer countries.
- daedalus_f 4y ago
  > In 2017, the UK spent £2,989 per person on healthcare, which was around the median for members of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development: OECD. > of the G7 group of large, developed economies, UK healthcare spending per person was the second-lowest, with the highest spenders being France (£3,737), Germany (£4,432) and the United States (£7,736). > As a percentage of GDP, UK healthcare spending fell from 9.8% in 2013 to 9.6% in 2017. https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/healthcaresystem/articles/howdoesukhealthcarespendingcomparewithothercountries/2019-08-29 https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthan... Health care inflation is significantly higher than the retail price index. The population is aging - older people consume far more health resources than younger people.
- alexisread 4y ago
  I'm fairly sure that half a min of extra searching for stats would have turned up number of patients treated over that 12 year period - up 12% excluding covid, which pushed waiting lists up massively. https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/audio-video/key-facts-figures-nhs https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/audio-video/key-facts-figures-n... TBH I think most of the recent spending has been in management, rather than where it actually needs to be, so that doesn't help. As mentioned, outperforming here is a relative benchmark vs the US, as stated in the article.

Zagill 4y ago

I find it interesting that whenever socialized healthcare in the US is mentioned, there's always someone eager to point out the failings of Canada's and the UK's systems, yet I never hear mention of any of the other socialized healthcare systems that basically every highly developed nation maintains. I truthfully don't know any statistics on this sort of thing, so I couldn't tell you how good Finland or Greece or Spain are when it comes to healthcare. You'd think there would be relevant criticism to bring up elsewhere if the whole idea is flawed at it's core - otherwise, who cares if Canada's implementation of the concept sucks? Let's learn from their mistakes and others' successes.

jbarham 4y ago
Lack of access to doctors is a big issue in Canada. E.g., here's a list of posts on /r/canada about family doctors in the past year: https://www.reddit.com/r/canada/search/?q=family%20doctor&t=year https://www.reddit.com/r/canada/search/?q=family%20doctor&t=... Canada is almost unique among developed countries with government healthcare in that it doesn't also have a parallel private medical system for those who can afford to pay for it. So naturally rich Canadians will often pay for private healthcare in the US. I'm originally Canadian but have lived in Australia for the past 10+ years (in Melbourne). We've never had any issues getting medical appointments with local doctors (usually "bulk billed" so we pay nothing or a very nominal amount for the appointment). But we also have private medical insurance, which is required above a certain age (30 something), that we use occasionally for specialist appointments. But even then the out-of-pocket fee is something like $70 which is fine. Unlike Canada, AFAIK most countries in Europe (e.g., Sweden, France, Spain, Germany) have parallel private medical care, so Canada really is unusual in that respect.

CaptainZapp 4y ago

> The NHS in the UK, commonly cited as the golden child of government-run healthcare Except for government clowns, the ones that still claim Brexit was a splendid idea, and people with vested interests absolutely nobody claims that. At least not since 2008 and austerity when the Tories started wanton destruction of the NHS. There's a massive drive to private healthcare for those that can afford it and the rest is welcome to eat shit. Or to wait 25 hours for an ambulance while lying on the floor with s broken hip.[0] [0] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/ambulance-wait-wales-elizabeth-davies-b2249147.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/ambulance-wait-wal...