11 ms·

Procrastination and the priority of short-term mood regulation

184 points by ValentineC 4y ago

Jarwain 4y ago
Interestingly enough I recently started taking St. John's Wort to help manage & regulate my mood and it's been surprisingly effective at helping deal with some of my procrastinate-y tendencies!
- MoOmer 4y ago
  For others who read this and are curious, here’s a good article: https://www.nccih.nih.gov/health/st-johns-wort https://www.nccih.nih.gov/health/st-johns-wort St Johns Wort interacts dangerously with a number of other drugs. There is evidence for a higher-than-placebo effect on mild to medium depression, but not enough evidence for claims made against ADHD.
  - kayodelycaon 4y ago
    Also, do not use if you’re bipolar. It can trigger mania and/or psychosis.
datpiff 4y ago
(PDF) https://eprints.whiterose.ac.uk/91793/1/Compass%20Paper%20revision%20FINAL.pdf https://eprints.whiterose.ac.uk/91793/1/Compass%20Paper%20re...
- freefaler 4y ago
  Thanks for the link!
mahathu 4y ago
I can't break out of my pattern of (attempted) short term mood regulation anymore. I'm just trying to distract myself getting high and watching historical documentaries or netflix because I barely have motivation for anything more, yet something always triggers painful memories of my childhood and past years and I really can't cope. I hate being so alone but I couldn't stand acting like I'm okay anymore around people so I just end up not going to things and am even more alone. This has been going on for a few weeks now.
- BobbyJo 4y ago
  I've been there. The thing I fine that helps is just doing anything to disrupt the pattern. Go get your motorcycle license, join a gym, get a new wardrobe, paint your room, read a book, anything. If you can force yourself to do something other than what you're doing just once, it'll be easier to do something else the second, third, forth, etc. time. I find the more disruptive that first change is, the easier the rest become. Hope this helps.
- lightbulbish 4y ago
  Consistently getting high (weed) greatly increases dopamine baseline, leading to other things being “harder” to start doing. It also increases negative thoughts (anxiety). weed, alcohol and other substances can lead to negative loop where you consume to feel better and feel worse the day(s) after due to the consumption, leading to increased appetite. There are many ways out, you just have to find one that works for you. Previous poster’s suggestion are good. A psychologist can help. Detox. A trip to a new place. Late night hobbies with friends. Exercise is great.
- blitz_skull 4y ago
  A really easy start would be to listen to Andrew Huberman's work on Dopamine. Realize that you're stuck in a rut-—accept it. Then start racking up tiny wins. I mean infinitesimally small wins. Then slowly you will work your way out. Don't despair. Everyone goes through this from time-to-time.
- sinoue 4y ago
  You are self medicating and self isolating because you are suffering. Get help. You were meant to be apart of a community where you are loved and appreciated.
  - hirvi74 4y ago
    I second getting help. Over the years, even up to the present time, I have tried to do all the right things like getting properly assessed, undergoing therapy, seeking proper medication, millions attempts to better myself, etc.. I'm still doing trying to do everything I listed above, but I have made little to no progress over the last decade, and in some ways, I feel that I have actually regressed. I have started to accept that I might be fundamentally broken beyond repair. I am not saying any of this to discourage anyone from getting proper help, I just think people should be aware that treatments are not a guarantee.
MoOmer 4y ago
Here’s a thread on a technique to get a handle on short term mood regulation, rather than using coping techniques like procrastination. I’m not sure if it works, but I’ll be trying it soon! https://www.reddit.com/r/selfimprovement/comments/c42i6f/procrastination_is_not_a_time_management_problem/ https://www.reddit.com/r/selfimprovement/comments/c42i6f/pro...
mminich 4y ago
I found this one practically actionable and helpful > Motivation, broadly speaking, operates on the erroneous assumption that a particular mental or emotional state is necessary to complete a task. > That’s completely the wrong way around. > Discipline, by contrast, separates outwards functioning from moods and feelings and thereby ironically circumvents the problem by consistently improving them. https://www.wisdomination.com/screw-motivation-what-you-need-is-discipline/ https://www.wisdomination.com/screw-motivation-what-you-need...
- crosen99 4y ago
  I think motivation vs discipline is a false dichotomy. I’d argue that discipline is simply a form of motivation that emerges when the pain of avoidance can be adequately internalized. IOW, what we call discipline is just a conditioning that makes procrastination suck more than it sucks to do the task you “know” you ought to do.
  - blitz_skull 4y ago
    I think that's just moving the definitions around. The traditional understanding of the word "motivation" is "the desire to do something". Discipline, in contrast, is doing something regardless of desire. So you can move the definitions around, but at the end of the day; there are still situations where people succumb to doing or not doing something based on emotion, and the decision to do it regardless of desire is still discipline.
    - lo_zamoyski 4y ago
      I am increasingly convinced that procrastination and lack of focus are rooted in character flaws and bad habits, and as a result, that they are amenable to reform. If we look at, shall we say, the traditional definitions of perseverance, effeminacy, and delicacy[0], we find that someone who perseveres is someone who "does not forsake a good on account of long endurance of difficulties and toils". Effeminacy is the inability to undertake what is not pleasurable, whereas delicacy is the inability to endure displeasure ("properly speaking effeminacy regards lack of pleasures, while delicacy regards the cause that hinders pleasure, for instance toil or the like"). We "moderns" are certainly a soft people. We cannot help but indulge ourselves, we cannot bear what we do not like, and we refuse to embrace the yoke. We are slaves to our appetites and desires. FOMO, which is opportunism, and a culture of instant gratification, are the result and the encouragement of the inability to forsake lower goods for the sake of higher goods, and so we undergo dissipation. And what is dissipation but a lack of focus? And what is the procrastinator avoiding if not discomfort, if not displeasure? Naturally, this becomes the default mode of operation when life is perceived to have no end. If there is no highest pleasure, no highest good, then all we have left are lower pleasures. Perhaps paradoxically, even the lower pleasures lose their proper flavor and become denatured in the absence of the highest. Thus despair is consummated. [0] https://www.newadvent.org/summa/3138.htm https://www.newadvent.org/summa/3138.htm
bjornsing 4y ago
I don’t think it’s correct to see procrastination as only a negative. At least for me it’s often a signal that whatever activity I’m trying to push myself to will not have the desired outcome. So as I see it procrastination is sort of the internal equivalent of a hesitant investor, asking “will this work really pay off?” That’s a very important question, and asking it has obvious survival benefits.
- lazide 4y ago
  It does - if the signal turns into addressing the underlying issue. So, if someone recognizes the tendency to procrastinate on studying on a test as a sign they need to study more, and then does it? Good. Getting stuck, then in a fear loop where they wait until it’s too late to actually do well on the test, then hurt themselves trying to study at the last minute and do poorly (or just good enough)? Bad. Most people consider the latter behavior procrastination, and the first one not.
  - bjornsing 4y ago
    I think you misunderstood me. I meant that I see procrastination as a signal e.g. that studying for the test will not have the intended result of doing well on the test, or that I may not actually want to do well on the test. So the hesitant investor is asking “Do I really want this? Is it worth the time and energy investment of studying?”
    - lazide 4y ago
      Ah, ok thanks! That does explain it a bit better. But if you actually believe it isn't worth the effort or that you don't actually want to do well on the test, then it's also unlikely to be a stressful or unpleasant experience, right? Procrastination is pretty universally unpleasant. If it was really what you believed, you'd just not spend extra effort on it, and shrug when the expected result occurs, and you'd probably be right! My experience has been that is just not giving a shit, which isn't procrastination, per-se, and often necessary and healthy in at least some parts of our lives. Procrastination is the cycle of avoidance/anxiety/shame where one is trying to convince themselves of the above state, despite them not really believing it, as a way to attempt to regulate themselves. Reality almost always intervenes eventually though. One of the more common types of stress (in my experience) is when ones actions don't match what they know they should do to produce the outcome they want or need. And it's generally a dysfunction if it gets in the way of doing what they want, and can do, if they were better regulating. Anyone with ADHD is quite familiar with it and the analogy of 'the wall of awful'. The big issue with true procrastination, in my experience, is that the worse it gets, the worse it gets, and if someone gets to a certain point, it can become life destroying (ex: Hoarders, folks who avoid Dental issues until their teeth fall out, avoid going to the Doctor for that twinge in their chest until they die of a heart attack, etc.). Procrastination almost never happens when someone is confident in their ability to actually do something, and is in a place where they are actually healthy/feeling ok. So procrastinating to the point someone gets super anxious even if they eventually succeed, or fails at something really important, builds up 'the wall of awful'. Success at something, or feeling good when something is accomplished, tears it down. So for instance: If an investor gets the twinge of 'Do I really want this, is this worth the time and energy investment'; - A good investor will generally notice and figure out - is this a self limiting belief on their side (and if so, can they resolve their personal issue healthily and then re-evaluate), or a legitimate red flag that it's not worth it. If they are so attentive and able to see what is going on with them and self-regulate well enough, they'll tend to pick more successful options in general, and avoid scams more often. That leads to more confidence in those decisions and in my experience higher overall returns. They won't be bogged down in failures they (kind of) saw coming, and will be able to capitalize on good opportunities when they present themselves instead of avoiding them or saying No. - A bad investor will not do so (and will resort to either dismissing the concern outright, or trusting it outright), and either force themselves to invest regardless (and hence be scammed more often), or not invest and miss out on good investments (and hence miss out on opportunities). This leads to more self limiting beliefs and real problems and they often work themselves into a deeper hole, or go bankrupt. As individuals, executive function is that same type of behavior but for our own actions. It can be, and is, exhaustible for everyone. ADHD, for instance, is the name we give to folks who have a harder time keeping it and not exhausting it. But everyone is on a spectrum.
xattt 4y ago
Anytime I read research like this, I think about how the opposite of the suggested positive changes can be applied (and how it would look like) in order to weaponize the emotional well-being of an opposing nation.
kyaghmour 4y ago
I've found that I can more easily get myself to get things done when I project myself into the future and remember the satisfaction of having done it. The projected nostalgia of a job well done turns out to be a powerful motivator for me.
- chrisjc 4y ago
  Almost sounds like a "dopamine advance". I think I could do with one (many) of those.
- isolli 4y ago
  Conversely, after I'm done with a mundane but supremely boring task like filing taxes, I fail to experience any reward. This makes it just as hard to complete the task the next time. I know it will provide me no satisfaction. It's better at work, where I'm lucky to have interesting problems to solve.
jsonne 4y ago
Speaking from personal experience I tried every trick, strategy, and everything else under the sun and it never worked which led to a lot of personal shame and anxiety that over time became so tiring and demoralizing it led to short term the occasional bought of depression. Talk therapy helped but wasn't enough. Saw a doctor in my early 30s, got diagnosed with adhd, and started adderall which gave me the ability to focus and get my life in order enough I had the space and energy to do the long term compounding things like exercise, getting my diet in order (I'm on a paleo-ish diet now), have time to meditate/journal etc. etc. The hyper focus on short term mood before I recognize now was really an attempt to get in the right head space to get work done but that process is exhausting and leaves little energy to do the long term right things. Maybe if I had the wealth to step away from work for months and purely focus on that I could have gotten to the place without medication to let the long term things compound but I don't think thats a realistic option for 99% of people at least in the US and especially with families to support. We can argue about the structure of society and if thats right or not but for my own life frustration at the general state of the world does little to improve my life. Stimulant meds are not a silver bullet but for some % of folks no amount of strategizing is going to help without medication and/or therapy. I use both and it's been enough of a push to see dramatic improvement. My biggest piece of advice if you're struggling with this generally is drop the shame. The shame that you struggle with it, the shame that you might need medication, etc. Then when the shame is gone you can be objective to do get what you need and stack the long term habits that make things easier.
- gibquaaludes 4y ago
  Thank you for sharing your experience. Weirdly enough, it's liberating to know that this could be a cure-proof terminal state.
  - jsonne 4y ago
    Well so for what its worth and I guess I wasn't explicit about is that at this point (just shy of 1 year medicated) my days I am not medicated (I take medication 4 days a week) are much easier to get things done now because of the other work I've been doing. As they continue to compound I'm hoping that in another year I can largely discontinue meds or switch to a less often as needed basis. So there is long term hope but for me and folks like me medication can break the short term cycle to get there. That said plenty of folks can't function with medication and there is no shame in that either.
chadlavi 4y ago
Eh I'll read this later
dboreham 4y ago
Of all the sources on this subject, I've found this dude to be the most clear and actionable: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QWIxElEnc8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QWIxElEnc8
- gessha 4y ago
  HealthyGamerGG has very wholesome content
- Apocryphon 4y ago
  Incredibly good analysis and advice!
zwieback 4y ago
I reject the premise! Procrastination is a valid strategy in many situations, setting a task to a start of "as-late-as-possible" can be optimal in dynamic environments, both in projects as well as personal life. Much time and effort is wasted when we start something too soon. The key is not to feel bad about procrastinating, the key is to become better at estimating and planning for completing tasks.
- andai 4y ago
  Sources are on my other device but I read this morning that people who score higher on the procrastination scale earn significantly less ($15,000 per "procrastination point", out of 10 I guess?) , and have significantly worse mental health. I'm procrastinating while writing this and I personally feel much better when I'm facing all my difficulties head on than when avoiding them. I'm just so tired lately...
  - zwieback 4y ago
    Thanks, that would be an interesting read, post the source here if you can.
- fumeux_fume 4y ago
  I think procrastination should imply that there's likely no benefit in delaying the task at hand. But I agree that the "start as-late-as-possible" strategy can be beneficial in a wide array of situations. When I was getting my degree I learned that starting projects ASAP was foolish because the professor often changed the scope or made important clarifications about a week before it was due.
- ChainOfFools 4y ago
  if you do it at the last minute, it only takes a minute to do!
encoderer 4y ago
I’ve always been a procrastinator. I’m mostly functional. Decent career, business and family. About ten years ago I realized the truth that works for me: Mood follows motion. You can’t wait until you feel good to do the thing. It’s the doing of the thing that makes you feel good.
- dweinus 4y ago
  That has worked well for me too. I am a chronic procrastinator. When faced with a new task, I "trick" myself by saying I will just endure the tiny bit of pain to get started in some stupid, basic way (e.g. create a blank document or write a list of the real work I have to do). Most times, after 5 minutes of pain, I will be over the hump and just keep working because I want to see it through.
- kayodelycaon 4y ago
  I had this realization as well. My method is to try for 30 minutes. If it doesn't click by then, it's not going to. If I tried and failed, I'm not the problem, my disability is.
ttul 4y ago
ADHD is commonly thought of as a disorder of attention, but it also has a nexus of dysfunction in mood regulation. I am simplifying, but people with ADHD don’t generate enough dopamine to stimulate the circuits that regulate emotion. Most people with ADHD therefore experience heightened emotional responses to negative stimuli. This leads to all sorts of problems with relationships and work. Procrastination is the art of avoiding the emotional pain that happens when you think about working on something you find distasteful or boring. ADHD presents two problems in relation to procrastination: first, ADHD gives you a lifetime of training in the pain of focusing on difficult or boring work. And second, when you experience the feeling that something will be difficult or boring, you don’t properly regulate that feeling. It becomes overwhelming.
- AB1908 4y ago
  > but people with ADHD don’t generate enough dopamine to stimulate the circuits that regulate emotion. Most people with ADHD therefore experience heightened emotional responses to negative stimuli. This leads to all sorts of problems with relationships and work. Would you have a citation for this?
  - coldtea 4y ago
    It might not be on the DSM yet (and the DSM itself isn't some holy gospel) but it can be found very widely reported: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-shrink-tank/202004/adhd-and-emotions-what-the-dsm-5-doesnt-tell-us https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-shrink-tank/2020...
  - mxmilkiib 4y ago
    Fwiw https://www.additudemag.com/tag/emotional-dysregulation/ https://www.additudemag.com/tag/emotional-dysregulation/
  - ttul 4y ago
    https://www.adhdevidence.org/ics#Emotional https://www.adhdevidence.org/ics#Emotional 103. A study of over 8600 youths from the U.S. National Health Interview Survey found that those with ADHD were four times as likely to have a high level of emotional and conduct problems and three times as likely to have a high level of peer problems. It also found that they were eight to ten times as likely to manifest a high level of impairment with home life, friendships, classroom learning, and leisure activities (Strine et al., 2006). 104. A meta-analysis of 22 studies with over 21,000 participants found that youths with ADHD were strongly impaired in the ability to modulate their reactivity to novel or stressful events (Graziano and Garcia, 2016). Another meta-analysis, combining twelve studies with over 1900 participants, found that adults with ADHD had very elevated levels of emotional dysregulation compared with normally developing controls (Beheshti et al., 2020). 105. A meta-analysis found that children with ADHD had medium-to-large impairments in socializing with peers as measured by rejection/likability, popularity, and friendships (61 studies, over 24,000 children). They also had moderate impairments in social skills such as sharing, cooperating, turn-taking, reciprocity (68 studies, over 148,000 children), and social-information processing, such as recognizing social cues, identifying problems, generating solutions, and avoiding biases (23 studies, over 3750 children) (Ros and Graziano, 2018). 106. A study of over 53,000 U.S. children from the National Survey of Children’s Health found that those with ADHD were 2.4 times as likely to engage in bullying (Montes and Halterman, 2007). A more recent study of some 64,000 children using the same database confirmed this finding, reporting that those with ADHD were 2.8 times more likely to engage in bullying (Benedict et al., 2015).
mrleinad 4y ago
This MF helped me a lot, so here it is in case it can do the same for you. Read his book. https://www.deprocrastination.co/blog/one-thing-you-should-learn-from-david-goggins https://www.deprocrastination.co/blog/one-thing-you-should-l...
feoren 4y ago
Lots of people are here saying ADHD meds helped them a lot. I have also seen people say ADHD meds led them to a psychotic breakdown. I have also seen people say that ADHD meds helped for a few months and then became their "baseline" again, and they were stuck taking them for the rest of their lives with no benefit. It seems like such a huge gamble to even start. Even if I did decide ADHD meds would help me, good fucking luck trying to get them! It would mean spending thousands of dollars talking to different psychologists, most of whom would do absolutely nothing for me. I'm not anti-psychology as a discipline, but the way it's practiced in the U.S. is shameful. 30-minute phone sessions where they barely remember who you are since the last time they talked to you; you tell them about your life and they go "wow, that sounds really hard" ad nauseum until the call is over, and pretend like that has done a goddamn thing to help you. I'd have better luck talking to fucking ChatGPT than a psychologist. They never do a goddamn thing. That's the general attitude of every healthcare professional I've ever seen in my life. If it's not a standard procedure like a vaccination, then it's "what the fuck do you expect me to do about it?" The U.S. medical system is completely fucked, especially for chronic issues, and especially for mental issues. So all you people saying ADHD meds helped you, either you don't live in the U.S., you bought them illegally, you are rich enough to have "a guy" for it, or you got extremely fucking lucky.
- kayodelycaon 4y ago
  Let's unpack this a bit. - Psychologists do not prescribe medication. - No psychiatrist has asked me to unpack my life and feelings. They don't have time for that. They treat symptoms and had off the therapy to someone else. - Primary care doctors in the US can and do prescribe ADHD medication. (It helps if you have some history with them before you ask.) - While ADHD medication can trigger psychosis, it's rare. The marijuana people self-medicate with has a much higher risk of psychosis. Undiagnosed bipolar or schizophrenia increases the risk. - First-line ADHD medications the safest and easiest psych medication available. It works quickly and can be stopped just as quickly. They aren't addictive short-term. - ADHD meds aren't known to be addictive long-term. Ritalin has been in use for just about 70 years. If it was extremely addictive or did serious long-term damage (beyond the obvious stress on the circulatory system), we'd know. - A lot of the initial effects of stimulants fade as you build tolerance, but they still provide increased ability to focus over baseline. They are an effective long-term treatment.

184 points by ValentineC 4y ago

Interestingly enough I recently started taking St. John's Wort to help manage & regulate my mood and it's been surprisingly effective at helping deal with some of my procrastinate-y tendencies!

MoOmer 4y ago
For others who read this and are curious, here’s a good article: https://www.nccih.nih.gov/health/st-johns-wort https://www.nccih.nih.gov/health/st-johns-wort St Johns Wort interacts dangerously with a number of other drugs. There is evidence for a higher-than-placebo effect on mild to medium depression, but not enough evidence for claims made against ADHD.
- kayodelycaon 4y ago
  Also, do not use if you’re bipolar. It can trigger mania and/or psychosis.

datpiff 4y ago

(PDF) https://eprints.whiterose.ac.uk/91793/1/Compass%20Paper%20revision%20FINAL.pdf https://eprints.whiterose.ac.uk/91793/1/Compass%20Paper%20re...

freefaler 4y ago
Thanks for the link!

mahathu 4y ago

I can't break out of my pattern of (attempted) short term mood regulation anymore. I'm just trying to distract myself getting high and watching historical documentaries or netflix because I barely have motivation for anything more, yet something always triggers painful memories of my childhood and past years and I really can't cope. I hate being so alone but I couldn't stand acting like I'm okay anymore around people so I just end up not going to things and am even more alone. This has been going on for a few weeks now.

BobbyJo 4y ago
I've been there. The thing I fine that helps is just doing anything to disrupt the pattern. Go get your motorcycle license, join a gym, get a new wardrobe, paint your room, read a book, anything. If you can force yourself to do something other than what you're doing just once, it'll be easier to do something else the second, third, forth, etc. time. I find the more disruptive that first change is, the easier the rest become. Hope this helps.
lightbulbish 4y ago
Consistently getting high (weed) greatly increases dopamine baseline, leading to other things being “harder” to start doing. It also increases negative thoughts (anxiety). weed, alcohol and other substances can lead to negative loop where you consume to feel better and feel worse the day(s) after due to the consumption, leading to increased appetite. There are many ways out, you just have to find one that works for you. Previous poster’s suggestion are good. A psychologist can help. Detox. A trip to a new place. Late night hobbies with friends. Exercise is great.
blitz_skull 4y ago
A really easy start would be to listen to Andrew Huberman's work on Dopamine. Realize that you're stuck in a rut-—accept it. Then start racking up tiny wins. I mean infinitesimally small wins. Then slowly you will work your way out. Don't despair. Everyone goes through this from time-to-time.
sinoue 4y ago
You are self medicating and self isolating because you are suffering. Get help. You were meant to be apart of a community where you are loved and appreciated.
- hirvi74 4y ago
  I second getting help. Over the years, even up to the present time, I have tried to do all the right things like getting properly assessed, undergoing therapy, seeking proper medication, millions attempts to better myself, etc.. I'm still doing trying to do everything I listed above, but I have made little to no progress over the last decade, and in some ways, I feel that I have actually regressed. I have started to accept that I might be fundamentally broken beyond repair. I am not saying any of this to discourage anyone from getting proper help, I just think people should be aware that treatments are not a guarantee.

MoOmer 4y ago

Here’s a thread on a technique to get a handle on short term mood regulation, rather than using coping techniques like procrastination. I’m not sure if it works, but I’ll be trying it soon! https://www.reddit.com/r/selfimprovement/comments/c42i6f/procrastination_is_not_a_time_management_problem/ https://www.reddit.com/r/selfimprovement/comments/c42i6f/pro...

mminich 4y ago

I found this one practically actionable and helpful > Motivation, broadly speaking, operates on the erroneous assumption that a particular mental or emotional state is necessary to complete a task. > That’s completely the wrong way around. > Discipline, by contrast, separates outwards functioning from moods and feelings and thereby ironically circumvents the problem by consistently improving them. https://www.wisdomination.com/screw-motivation-what-you-need-is-discipline/ https://www.wisdomination.com/screw-motivation-what-you-need...

crosen99 4y ago
I think motivation vs discipline is a false dichotomy. I’d argue that discipline is simply a form of motivation that emerges when the pain of avoidance can be adequately internalized. IOW, what we call discipline is just a conditioning that makes procrastination suck more than it sucks to do the task you “know” you ought to do.
- blitz_skull 4y ago
  I think that's just moving the definitions around. The traditional understanding of the word "motivation" is "the desire to do something". Discipline, in contrast, is doing something regardless of desire. So you can move the definitions around, but at the end of the day; there are still situations where people succumb to doing or not doing something based on emotion, and the decision to do it regardless of desire is still discipline.
  - lo_zamoyski 4y ago
    I am increasingly convinced that procrastination and lack of focus are rooted in character flaws and bad habits, and as a result, that they are amenable to reform. If we look at, shall we say, the traditional definitions of perseverance, effeminacy, and delicacy[0], we find that someone who perseveres is someone who "does not forsake a good on account of long endurance of difficulties and toils". Effeminacy is the inability to undertake what is not pleasurable, whereas delicacy is the inability to endure displeasure ("properly speaking effeminacy regards lack of pleasures, while delicacy regards the cause that hinders pleasure, for instance toil or the like"). We "moderns" are certainly a soft people. We cannot help but indulge ourselves, we cannot bear what we do not like, and we refuse to embrace the yoke. We are slaves to our appetites and desires. FOMO, which is opportunism, and a culture of instant gratification, are the result and the encouragement of the inability to forsake lower goods for the sake of higher goods, and so we undergo dissipation. And what is dissipation but a lack of focus? And what is the procrastinator avoiding if not discomfort, if not displeasure? Naturally, this becomes the default mode of operation when life is perceived to have no end. If there is no highest pleasure, no highest good, then all we have left are lower pleasures. Perhaps paradoxically, even the lower pleasures lose their proper flavor and become denatured in the absence of the highest. Thus despair is consummated. [0] https://www.newadvent.org/summa/3138.htm https://www.newadvent.org/summa/3138.htm

bjornsing 4y ago

I don’t think it’s correct to see procrastination as only a negative. At least for me it’s often a signal that whatever activity I’m trying to push myself to will not have the desired outcome. So as I see it procrastination is sort of the internal equivalent of a hesitant investor, asking “will this work really pay off?” That’s a very important question, and asking it has obvious survival benefits.

lazide 4y ago
It does - if the signal turns into addressing the underlying issue. So, if someone recognizes the tendency to procrastinate on studying on a test as a sign they need to study more, and then does it? Good. Getting stuck, then in a fear loop where they wait until it’s too late to actually do well on the test, then hurt themselves trying to study at the last minute and do poorly (or just good enough)? Bad. Most people consider the latter behavior procrastination, and the first one not.
- bjornsing 4y ago
  I think you misunderstood me. I meant that I see procrastination as a signal e.g. that studying for the test will not have the intended result of doing well on the test, or that I may not actually want to do well on the test. So the hesitant investor is asking “Do I really want this? Is it worth the time and energy investment of studying?”
  - lazide 4y ago
    Ah, ok thanks! That does explain it a bit better. But if you actually believe it isn't worth the effort or that you don't actually want to do well on the test, then it's also unlikely to be a stressful or unpleasant experience, right? Procrastination is pretty universally unpleasant. If it was really what you believed, you'd just not spend extra effort on it, and shrug when the expected result occurs, and you'd probably be right! My experience has been that is just not giving a shit, which isn't procrastination, per-se, and often necessary and healthy in at least some parts of our lives. Procrastination is the cycle of avoidance/anxiety/shame where one is trying to convince themselves of the above state, despite them not really believing it, as a way to attempt to regulate themselves. Reality almost always intervenes eventually though. One of the more common types of stress (in my experience) is when ones actions don't match what they know they should do to produce the outcome they want or need. And it's generally a dysfunction if it gets in the way of doing what they want, and can do, if they were better regulating. Anyone with ADHD is quite familiar with it and the analogy of 'the wall of awful'. The big issue with true procrastination, in my experience, is that the worse it gets, the worse it gets, and if someone gets to a certain point, it can become life destroying (ex: Hoarders, folks who avoid Dental issues until their teeth fall out, avoid going to the Doctor for that twinge in their chest until they die of a heart attack, etc.). Procrastination almost never happens when someone is confident in their ability to actually do something, and is in a place where they are actually healthy/feeling ok. So procrastinating to the point someone gets super anxious even if they eventually succeed, or fails at something really important, builds up 'the wall of awful'. Success at something, or feeling good when something is accomplished, tears it down. So for instance: If an investor gets the twinge of 'Do I really want this, is this worth the time and energy investment'; - A good investor will generally notice and figure out - is this a self limiting belief on their side (and if so, can they resolve their personal issue healthily and then re-evaluate), or a legitimate red flag that it's not worth it. If they are so attentive and able to see what is going on with them and self-regulate well enough, they'll tend to pick more successful options in general, and avoid scams more often. That leads to more confidence in those decisions and in my experience higher overall returns. They won't be bogged down in failures they (kind of) saw coming, and will be able to capitalize on good opportunities when they present themselves instead of avoiding them or saying No. - A bad investor will not do so (and will resort to either dismissing the concern outright, or trusting it outright), and either force themselves to invest regardless (and hence be scammed more often), or not invest and miss out on good investments (and hence miss out on opportunities). This leads to more self limiting beliefs and real problems and they often work themselves into a deeper hole, or go bankrupt. As individuals, executive function is that same type of behavior but for our own actions. It can be, and is, exhaustible for everyone. ADHD, for instance, is the name we give to folks who have a harder time keeping it and not exhausting it. But everyone is on a spectrum.

xattt 4y ago

Anytime I read research like this, I think about how the opposite of the suggested positive changes can be applied (and how it would look like) in order to weaponize the emotional well-being of an opposing nation.

kyaghmour 4y ago

I've found that I can more easily get myself to get things done when I project myself into the future and remember the satisfaction of having done it. The projected nostalgia of a job well done turns out to be a powerful motivator for me.

chrisjc 4y ago
Almost sounds like a "dopamine advance". I think I could do with one (many) of those.
isolli 4y ago
Conversely, after I'm done with a mundane but supremely boring task like filing taxes, I fail to experience any reward. This makes it just as hard to complete the task the next time. I know it will provide me no satisfaction. It's better at work, where I'm lucky to have interesting problems to solve.

jsonne 4y ago

Speaking from personal experience I tried every trick, strategy, and everything else under the sun and it never worked which led to a lot of personal shame and anxiety that over time became so tiring and demoralizing it led to short term the occasional bought of depression. Talk therapy helped but wasn't enough. Saw a doctor in my early 30s, got diagnosed with adhd, and started adderall which gave me the ability to focus and get my life in order enough I had the space and energy to do the long term compounding things like exercise, getting my diet in order (I'm on a paleo-ish diet now), have time to meditate/journal etc. etc. The hyper focus on short term mood before I recognize now was really an attempt to get in the right head space to get work done but that process is exhausting and leaves little energy to do the long term right things. Maybe if I had the wealth to step away from work for months and purely focus on that I could have gotten to the place without medication to let the long term things compound but I don't think thats a realistic option for 99% of people at least in the US and especially with families to support. We can argue about the structure of society and if thats right or not but for my own life frustration at the general state of the world does little to improve my life. Stimulant meds are not a silver bullet but for some % of folks no amount of strategizing is going to help without medication and/or therapy. I use both and it's been enough of a push to see dramatic improvement. My biggest piece of advice if you're struggling with this generally is drop the shame. The shame that you struggle with it, the shame that you might need medication, etc. Then when the shame is gone you can be objective to do get what you need and stack the long term habits that make things easier.

gibquaaludes 4y ago
Thank you for sharing your experience. Weirdly enough, it's liberating to know that this could be a cure-proof terminal state.
- jsonne 4y ago
  Well so for what its worth and I guess I wasn't explicit about is that at this point (just shy of 1 year medicated) my days I am not medicated (I take medication 4 days a week) are much easier to get things done now because of the other work I've been doing. As they continue to compound I'm hoping that in another year I can largely discontinue meds or switch to a less often as needed basis. So there is long term hope but for me and folks like me medication can break the short term cycle to get there. That said plenty of folks can't function with medication and there is no shame in that either.

chadlavi 4y ago

Eh I'll read this later

dboreham 4y ago

Of all the sources on this subject, I've found this dude to be the most clear and actionable: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QWIxElEnc8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QWIxElEnc8

gessha 4y ago
HealthyGamerGG has very wholesome content
Apocryphon 4y ago
Incredibly good analysis and advice!

zwieback 4y ago

I reject the premise! Procrastination is a valid strategy in many situations, setting a task to a start of "as-late-as-possible" can be optimal in dynamic environments, both in projects as well as personal life. Much time and effort is wasted when we start something too soon. The key is not to feel bad about procrastinating, the key is to become better at estimating and planning for completing tasks.

andai 4y ago
Sources are on my other device but I read this morning that people who score higher on the procrastination scale earn significantly less ($15,000 per "procrastination point", out of 10 I guess?) , and have significantly worse mental health. I'm procrastinating while writing this and I personally feel much better when I'm facing all my difficulties head on than when avoiding them. I'm just so tired lately...
- zwieback 4y ago
  Thanks, that would be an interesting read, post the source here if you can.
fumeux_fume 4y ago
I think procrastination should imply that there's likely no benefit in delaying the task at hand. But I agree that the "start as-late-as-possible" strategy can be beneficial in a wide array of situations. When I was getting my degree I learned that starting projects ASAP was foolish because the professor often changed the scope or made important clarifications about a week before it was due.
ChainOfFools 4y ago
if you do it at the last minute, it only takes a minute to do!

encoderer 4y ago

I’ve always been a procrastinator. I’m mostly functional. Decent career, business and family. About ten years ago I realized the truth that works for me: Mood follows motion. You can’t wait until you feel good to do the thing. It’s the doing of the thing that makes you feel good.

dweinus 4y ago
That has worked well for me too. I am a chronic procrastinator. When faced with a new task, I "trick" myself by saying I will just endure the tiny bit of pain to get started in some stupid, basic way (e.g. create a blank document or write a list of the real work I have to do). Most times, after 5 minutes of pain, I will be over the hump and just keep working because I want to see it through.
kayodelycaon 4y ago
I had this realization as well. My method is to try for 30 minutes. If it doesn't click by then, it's not going to. If I tried and failed, I'm not the problem, my disability is.

ttul 4y ago

ADHD is commonly thought of as a disorder of attention, but it also has a nexus of dysfunction in mood regulation. I am simplifying, but people with ADHD don’t generate enough dopamine to stimulate the circuits that regulate emotion. Most people with ADHD therefore experience heightened emotional responses to negative stimuli. This leads to all sorts of problems with relationships and work. Procrastination is the art of avoiding the emotional pain that happens when you think about working on something you find distasteful or boring. ADHD presents two problems in relation to procrastination: first, ADHD gives you a lifetime of training in the pain of focusing on difficult or boring work. And second, when you experience the feeling that something will be difficult or boring, you don’t properly regulate that feeling. It becomes overwhelming.

AB1908 4y ago
> but people with ADHD don’t generate enough dopamine to stimulate the circuits that regulate emotion. Most people with ADHD therefore experience heightened emotional responses to negative stimuli. This leads to all sorts of problems with relationships and work. Would you have a citation for this?
- coldtea 4y ago
  It might not be on the DSM yet (and the DSM itself isn't some holy gospel) but it can be found very widely reported: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-shrink-tank/202004/adhd-and-emotions-what-the-dsm-5-doesnt-tell-us https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-shrink-tank/2020...
- mxmilkiib 4y ago
  Fwiw https://www.additudemag.com/tag/emotional-dysregulation/ https://www.additudemag.com/tag/emotional-dysregulation/
- ttul 4y ago
  https://www.adhdevidence.org/ics#Emotional https://www.adhdevidence.org/ics#Emotional 103. A study of over 8600 youths from the U.S. National Health Interview Survey found that those with ADHD were four times as likely to have a high level of emotional and conduct problems and three times as likely to have a high level of peer problems. It also found that they were eight to ten times as likely to manifest a high level of impairment with home life, friendships, classroom learning, and leisure activities (Strine et al., 2006). 104. A meta-analysis of 22 studies with over 21,000 participants found that youths with ADHD were strongly impaired in the ability to modulate their reactivity to novel or stressful events (Graziano and Garcia, 2016). Another meta-analysis, combining twelve studies with over 1900 participants, found that adults with ADHD had very elevated levels of emotional dysregulation compared with normally developing controls (Beheshti et al., 2020). 105. A meta-analysis found that children with ADHD had medium-to-large impairments in socializing with peers as measured by rejection/likability, popularity, and friendships (61 studies, over 24,000 children). They also had moderate impairments in social skills such as sharing, cooperating, turn-taking, reciprocity (68 studies, over 148,000 children), and social-information processing, such as recognizing social cues, identifying problems, generating solutions, and avoiding biases (23 studies, over 3750 children) (Ros and Graziano, 2018). 106. A study of over 53,000 U.S. children from the National Survey of Children’s Health found that those with ADHD were 2.4 times as likely to engage in bullying (Montes and Halterman, 2007). A more recent study of some 64,000 children using the same database confirmed this finding, reporting that those with ADHD were 2.8 times more likely to engage in bullying (Benedict et al., 2015).

mrleinad 4y ago

This MF helped me a lot, so here it is in case it can do the same for you. Read his book. https://www.deprocrastination.co/blog/one-thing-you-should-learn-from-david-goggins https://www.deprocrastination.co/blog/one-thing-you-should-l...

feoren 4y ago

Lots of people are here saying ADHD meds helped them a lot. I have also seen people say ADHD meds led them to a psychotic breakdown. I have also seen people say that ADHD meds helped for a few months and then became their "baseline" again, and they were stuck taking them for the rest of their lives with no benefit. It seems like such a huge gamble to even start. Even if I did decide ADHD meds would help me, good fucking luck trying to get them! It would mean spending thousands of dollars talking to different psychologists, most of whom would do absolutely nothing for me. I'm not anti-psychology as a discipline, but the way it's practiced in the U.S. is shameful. 30-minute phone sessions where they barely remember who you are since the last time they talked to you; you tell them about your life and they go "wow, that sounds really hard" ad nauseum until the call is over, and pretend like that has done a goddamn thing to help you. I'd have better luck talking to fucking ChatGPT than a psychologist. They never do a goddamn thing. That's the general attitude of every healthcare professional I've ever seen in my life. If it's not a standard procedure like a vaccination, then it's "what the fuck do you expect me to do about it?" The U.S. medical system is completely fucked, especially for chronic issues, and especially for mental issues. So all you people saying ADHD meds helped you, either you don't live in the U.S., you bought them illegally, you are rich enough to have "a guy" for it, or you got extremely fucking lucky.

kayodelycaon 4y ago
Let's unpack this a bit. - Psychologists do not prescribe medication. - No psychiatrist has asked me to unpack my life and feelings. They don't have time for that. They treat symptoms and had off the therapy to someone else. - Primary care doctors in the US can and do prescribe ADHD medication. (It helps if you have some history with them before you ask.) - While ADHD medication can trigger psychosis, it's rare. The marijuana people self-medicate with has a much higher risk of psychosis. Undiagnosed bipolar or schizophrenia increases the risk. - First-line ADHD medications the safest and easiest psych medication available. It works quickly and can be stopped just as quickly. They aren't addictive short-term. - ADHD meds aren't known to be addictive long-term. Ritalin has been in use for just about 70 years. If it was extremely addictive or did serious long-term damage (beyond the obvious stress on the circulatory system), we'd know. - A lot of the initial effects of stimulants fade as you build tolerance, but they still provide increased ability to focus over baseline. They are an effective long-term treatment.