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If your cultural group is substantially underrepresented in academia, why would you participate in academics? If you know the game is rigged against you, it’s

If your cultural group is substantially underrepresented in academia, why would you participate in academics? If you know the game is rigged against you, it’s perfectly reasonable not to play. I wonder what black study rates would be if they were given the same chances as white and asian people are. Hopefully we’ll get there, but we’re still a long way off.

Manuel_D 4y ago
> If you know the game is rigged against you, it’s perfectly reasonable not to play. As the other commenter explained, the mere existence of disparities in representation is not evidence of "rigging the game".
- SpeedilyDamage 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - crackercrews 4y ago
    No one denies that bad things were done to African Americans. We're trying to figure out what slavery or Jim Crow has to do with whether a Black student in 2023 decides to study or not.
    - SpeedilyDamage 4y ago
      [flagged]
      - crackercrews 4y ago
        My people have been oppressed for centuries. Most people come from people that have been oppressed for centuries. It doesn't factor into how much I study. You should check out John McWhorter, who has a very different take on what it is to grow up Black these days. I have no idea whether you're Black, or how old you are. But the characterization you give is out of step with what a lot of people perceive. Folks like John find these sort of descriptions borderline offensive. Also demoralizing to Black kids, who shouldn't be told that the world is more awful than it actually is.
        SpeedilyDamage 4y ago
        [flagged]
        crackercrews 4y ago
        You forgot to prove your premise.
        SpeedilyDamage 4y ago
        I did not.
        Manuel_D 4y ago
        Except hard work will help you succeed academically if you're black. In fact, it'll help you a lot more than if you're Asian or white. A Black applicant in the top 9th decile academically has over 50% chance of being admitted to Harvard, as compared to under 10% for an Asian student with the same academic achievement: https://www.economist.com/united-states/2018/06/23/a-lawsuit-reveals-how-peculiar-harvards-definition-of-merit-is https://www.economist.com/united-states/2018/06/23/a-lawsuit... If what you are saying were true we should be seeing Asians spending the least time studying and Black students studying hard. But your hypothesis is not only untrue, it's the opposite of what we actually observe.
        SpeedilyDamage 4y ago
        Yeah but getting to that level despite all of the shit holding black people (and other minority groups) back is insanely hard. So yeah, once you're there it probably gets a bit easier, but getting there is nearly impossible. What we do see are the systemic effects of an entire society normalizing a whole host of racist behaviors, including trying to play the struggle Olympics by comparing one racial group (who have a whole different set of issues) to another.
        Manuel_D 4y ago
        Comparing racial groups' admissions prospects isn't racist. It's just inconvenient to your narrative that Black students aren't rewarded by academic success because it so starkly demonstrates that it's not only untrue, but the opposite of true. A Black student needs to be squarely in the middle of the pack to have the same admissions chances as an Asian student in the top 10%. I'm baffled as to how you can convince yourself that Black students aren't rewarded for academic success - it's greater reward for the same level of academic success. Your who premise that Black students are not rewarded for academic success - which other commenters asked you to substantiate and you refused [1] - is untrue, and you've resorted to accusations of racism instead of trying to argue your point. 1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34673623 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34673623
      - desuforever 4y ago
        [flagged]
        SpeedilyDamage 4y ago
        Huh?
      - lazyeye 4y ago
        Jon Haidt talks about the overwhelming left-wing bias in our universities https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gatn5ameRr8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gatn5ameRr8
        SpeedilyDamage 4y ago
        There's a strong left-leaning bias in the general American population as well, so I'm not surprised (45% vs 40%).[0] [0] https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2021/11/09/beyond-red-vs-blue-the-political-typology-2/pp_2021-11-09_political-typology_00-01/ https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2021/11/09/beyond-red-v...
        lazyeye 4y ago
        Lol..well thats regularly disproven.
  - Manuel_D 4y ago
    Indeed, Black Americans have suffered slavery and discrimination after emancipation. But is that the primary cause of the continued underperformance of African Americans into the 21st century? Plenty of peoples have come to America dispossessed, only to thrive and even exceed the average fortunes of white Americans - such as Cuban Americans like myself, Jewish people, and Asian Americans. African immigrants similarly excel, despite outwardly appearing the same as American born Black people. The difference is that we don't disempower these cultures by giving them lowered expectations: my parents never told me I should expect unequal treatment on account of my Latin heritage and I'd be insulted by anyone who would. At this point, I doubt we'll make much progress toward resolving disparities in Black achievement without fostering equal investment in education in those communities. So long as Black students spend on average about half and one third as much time on homework as compared to white and Asian students respectively [1] the gaps academic performance aren't going anywhere. We can try to paper these over with more permissive expectations for admitting underrepresented students, but that has knock on effects: chiefly students admitted on account of affirmative action are less likely to major in STEM and more likely to drop out [2]. In this regard, affirmative action exacerbates underrepresentation in employment sectors as students that want to major in STEM are mismatched and change majors to graduate. I'm honestly struggling to figure out how you think anyone who disapproves of racial discrimination is ignorant of slavery and the struggle for civil rights. Is your worldview really so narrow that you assume anyone who disapproves of racial discrimination is ignorant of slavery and anti-Black discrimination? 1. https://www.brookings.edu/blog/brown-center-chalkboard/2017/08/10/analyzing-the-homework-gap-among-high-school-students/ https://www.brookings.edu/blog/brown-center-chalkboard/2017/... 2. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6675032/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6675032/
    - SpeedilyDamage 4y ago
      You keep citing this "hours of study" idea like I haven't already addressed it; when you see academic effort squashed by racism, it's no wonder at all that you stop studying. Fix racism in academia, fix the study gap, it's that simple. Affirmative action does not exacerbate underrepresentation in employment sectors at all; if anything it improves representation, as more minority students are given a chance at completing college, which changes the makeup of eligible employees towards a more equitable mixture. And I feel the need to remind you of slavery as you do seem wholly ignorant of its existence and further relevance to this topic. My citations are not generic "Slavery existed" citations, they're "slavery existed and to this very day has a gigantic impact on black people in academia. citations. You are wrong, and harmfully so. You can continue to be wrong, but as long as you are, you also continue to be harmful.
benj111 4y ago
Englishmen are under represented in the baseball world series. Should I get to play despite never having held a baseball bat?
- SpeedilyDamage 4y ago
  If you have the skills, yeah absolutely.
  - benj111 4y ago
    No that's discrimination, you're just re-enforcing the absence of the English in baseball. You need to let me play, only then is it worth me starting to practice.
    - SpeedilyDamage 4y ago
      Sorry what? That's not how affirmative action works at all, you have to be qualified for a given spot, the whole point is that there are way too many qualified candidates as it is.
      - benj111 4y ago
        Go commented: > Asian students, for example, spend more than 3x as much time studying as Black students.[1] Do you think there's a chance that this contributes to their higher representation at Caltech? To which you replied: >If your cultural group is substantially underrepresented in academia, why would you participate in academics? If you know the game is rigged against you, it’s perfectly reasonable not to play... So are they expected to 'play the game' or not? Define qualified? If a get an E (technically a pass) am I 'qualified' to the same extent as someone with an A? If I get my basic baseball proficiency badge does that allow me to play against the best baseballers the world has to offer? Just because of my race? Further. You do understand the future danger of all this? If I'm looking to hire graduates and I know the black kids had an easier time getting in. If I want the best im better off not looking at the black kids. Their piece of paper is worth less. Plus you're infantalising them. They should be getting there on their own merits. If they aren't doing the work to get the grades, that issue should be addressed, not papered over.

Manuel_D 4y ago

> If you know the game is rigged against you, it’s perfectly reasonable not to play. As the other commenter explained, the mere existence of disparities in representation is not evidence of "rigging the game".

SpeedilyDamage 4y ago
[flagged]
- crackercrews 4y ago
  No one denies that bad things were done to African Americans. We're trying to figure out what slavery or Jim Crow has to do with whether a Black student in 2023 decides to study or not.
  - SpeedilyDamage 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - crackercrews 4y ago
      My people have been oppressed for centuries. Most people come from people that have been oppressed for centuries. It doesn't factor into how much I study. You should check out John McWhorter, who has a very different take on what it is to grow up Black these days. I have no idea whether you're Black, or how old you are. But the characterization you give is out of step with what a lot of people perceive. Folks like John find these sort of descriptions borderline offensive. Also demoralizing to Black kids, who shouldn't be told that the world is more awful than it actually is.
      - SpeedilyDamage 4y ago
        [flagged]
        crackercrews 4y ago
        You forgot to prove your premise.
        SpeedilyDamage 4y ago
        I did not.
        Manuel_D 4y ago
        Except hard work will help you succeed academically if you're black. In fact, it'll help you a lot more than if you're Asian or white. A Black applicant in the top 9th decile academically has over 50% chance of being admitted to Harvard, as compared to under 10% for an Asian student with the same academic achievement: https://www.economist.com/united-states/2018/06/23/a-lawsuit-reveals-how-peculiar-harvards-definition-of-merit-is https://www.economist.com/united-states/2018/06/23/a-lawsuit... If what you are saying were true we should be seeing Asians spending the least time studying and Black students studying hard. But your hypothesis is not only untrue, it's the opposite of what we actually observe.
        SpeedilyDamage 4y ago
        Yeah but getting to that level despite all of the shit holding black people (and other minority groups) back is insanely hard. So yeah, once you're there it probably gets a bit easier, but getting there is nearly impossible. What we do see are the systemic effects of an entire society normalizing a whole host of racist behaviors, including trying to play the struggle Olympics by comparing one racial group (who have a whole different set of issues) to another.
        Manuel_D 4y ago
        Comparing racial groups' admissions prospects isn't racist. It's just inconvenient to your narrative that Black students aren't rewarded by academic success because it so starkly demonstrates that it's not only untrue, but the opposite of true. A Black student needs to be squarely in the middle of the pack to have the same admissions chances as an Asian student in the top 10%. I'm baffled as to how you can convince yourself that Black students aren't rewarded for academic success - it's greater reward for the same level of academic success. Your who premise that Black students are not rewarded for academic success - which other commenters asked you to substantiate and you refused [1] - is untrue, and you've resorted to accusations of racism instead of trying to argue your point. 1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34673623 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34673623
    - desuforever 4y ago
      [flagged]
      - SpeedilyDamage 4y ago
        Huh?
    - lazyeye 4y ago
      Jon Haidt talks about the overwhelming left-wing bias in our universities https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gatn5ameRr8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gatn5ameRr8
      - SpeedilyDamage 4y ago
        There's a strong left-leaning bias in the general American population as well, so I'm not surprised (45% vs 40%).[0] [0] https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2021/11/09/beyond-red-vs-blue-the-political-typology-2/pp_2021-11-09_political-typology_00-01/ https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2021/11/09/beyond-red-v...
        lazyeye 4y ago
        Lol..well thats regularly disproven.
- Manuel_D 4y ago
  Indeed, Black Americans have suffered slavery and discrimination after emancipation. But is that the primary cause of the continued underperformance of African Americans into the 21st century? Plenty of peoples have come to America dispossessed, only to thrive and even exceed the average fortunes of white Americans - such as Cuban Americans like myself, Jewish people, and Asian Americans. African immigrants similarly excel, despite outwardly appearing the same as American born Black people. The difference is that we don't disempower these cultures by giving them lowered expectations: my parents never told me I should expect unequal treatment on account of my Latin heritage and I'd be insulted by anyone who would. At this point, I doubt we'll make much progress toward resolving disparities in Black achievement without fostering equal investment in education in those communities. So long as Black students spend on average about half and one third as much time on homework as compared to white and Asian students respectively [1] the gaps academic performance aren't going anywhere. We can try to paper these over with more permissive expectations for admitting underrepresented students, but that has knock on effects: chiefly students admitted on account of affirmative action are less likely to major in STEM and more likely to drop out [2]. In this regard, affirmative action exacerbates underrepresentation in employment sectors as students that want to major in STEM are mismatched and change majors to graduate. I'm honestly struggling to figure out how you think anyone who disapproves of racial discrimination is ignorant of slavery and the struggle for civil rights. Is your worldview really so narrow that you assume anyone who disapproves of racial discrimination is ignorant of slavery and anti-Black discrimination? 1. https://www.brookings.edu/blog/brown-center-chalkboard/2017/08/10/analyzing-the-homework-gap-among-high-school-students/ https://www.brookings.edu/blog/brown-center-chalkboard/2017/... 2. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6675032/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6675032/
  - SpeedilyDamage 4y ago
    You keep citing this "hours of study" idea like I haven't already addressed it; when you see academic effort squashed by racism, it's no wonder at all that you stop studying. Fix racism in academia, fix the study gap, it's that simple. Affirmative action does not exacerbate underrepresentation in employment sectors at all; if anything it improves representation, as more minority students are given a chance at completing college, which changes the makeup of eligible employees towards a more equitable mixture. And I feel the need to remind you of slavery as you do seem wholly ignorant of its existence and further relevance to this topic. My citations are not generic "Slavery existed" citations, they're "slavery existed and to this very day has a gigantic impact on black people in academia. citations. You are wrong, and harmfully so. You can continue to be wrong, but as long as you are, you also continue to be harmful.

benj111 4y ago

Englishmen are under represented in the baseball world series. Should I get to play despite never having held a baseball bat?

SpeedilyDamage 4y ago
If you have the skills, yeah absolutely.
- benj111 4y ago
  No that's discrimination, you're just re-enforcing the absence of the English in baseball. You need to let me play, only then is it worth me starting to practice.
  - SpeedilyDamage 4y ago
    Sorry what? That's not how affirmative action works at all, you have to be qualified for a given spot, the whole point is that there are way too many qualified candidates as it is.
    - benj111 4y ago
      Go commented: > Asian students, for example, spend more than 3x as much time studying as Black students.[1] Do you think there's a chance that this contributes to their higher representation at Caltech? To which you replied: >If your cultural group is substantially underrepresented in academia, why would you participate in academics? If you know the game is rigged against you, it’s perfectly reasonable not to play... So are they expected to 'play the game' or not? Define qualified? If a get an E (technically a pass) am I 'qualified' to the same extent as someone with an A? If I get my basic baseball proficiency badge does that allow me to play against the best baseballers the world has to offer? Just because of my race? Further. You do understand the future danger of all this? If I'm looking to hire graduates and I know the black kids had an easier time getting in. If I want the best im better off not looking at the black kids. Their piece of paper is worth less. Plus you're infantalising them. They should be getting there on their own merits. If they aren't doing the work to get the grades, that issue should be addressed, not papered over.