9 ms·

Not good. For one, it's illegal to discriminate on the basis of race and gender. And second, contrary to what seems to men common belief, Asian and white people

Not good. For one, it's illegal to discriminate on the basis of race and gender. And second, contrary to what seems to men common belief, Asian and white people don't just have opportunities served up to them on a silver platter (in fact on the axis of gender, job opportunities have not only reached disparity but inverted: millennial and Gen Z women outperform their male counterparts). The academic job market could not be further from "innumerable additional opportunities." This kind of comment serves as incredibly good ammunition for people looking to stir up racial resentment.

SpeedilyDamage 4y ago
[flagged]
- crackercrews 4y ago
  > white and asian folks absolutely do have more opportunities than other racial groups, and that’s borne out over and over again, whenever people look into these kinds of things. If you look at academic outcomes, black, hispanic, native american groups are still substantially further behind than white and asian groups. You haven't proven differential opportunity. You've only proven that some groups outperform other groups. You have not proven whether this is due to opportunities, discrimination, or hard work. Asian students, for example, spend more than 3x as much time studying as Black students.[1] Do you think there's a chance that this contributes to their higher representation at Caltech? 1: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/07311214221101422 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/07311214221101...
  - SpeedilyDamage 4y ago
    If your cultural group is substantially underrepresented in academia, why would you participate in academics? If you know the game is rigged against you, it’s perfectly reasonable not to play. I wonder what black study rates would be if they were given the same chances as white and asian people are. Hopefully we’ll get there, but we’re still a long way off.
    - Manuel_D 4y ago
      > If you know the game is rigged against you, it’s perfectly reasonable not to play. As the other commenter explained, the mere existence of disparities in representation is not evidence of "rigging the game".
      - SpeedilyDamage 4y ago
        [flagged]
        crackercrews 4y ago
        No one denies that bad things were done to African Americans. We're trying to figure out what slavery or Jim Crow has to do with whether a Black student in 2023 decides to study or not.
        SpeedilyDamage 4y ago
        [flagged]
        crackercrews 4y ago
        My people have been oppressed for centuries. Most people come from people that have been oppressed for centuries. It doesn't factor into how much I study. You should check out John McWhorter, who has a very different take on what it is to grow up Black these days. I have no idea whether you're Black, or how old you are. But the characterization you give is out of step with what a lot of people perceive. Folks like John find these sort of descriptions borderline offensive. Also demoralizing to Black kids, who shouldn't be told that the world is more awful than it actually is.
        SpeedilyDamage 4y ago
        [flagged]
- seneca 4y ago
  > Yes good, because white and asian folks absolutely do have more opportunities than other racial groups, and that’s borne out over and over again, whenever people look into these kinds of things. If you look at academic outcomes, black, hispanic, native american groups are still substantially further behind than white and asian groups. Group A outperforming Group B does not mean that Group A is being given unfair opportunities. It certainly doesn't justify intentionally, and illegally, giving Group B undeserved opportunities to the detriment of Group A.
  - SpeedilyDamage 4y ago
    It absolutely does mean that group A is being given more opportunities than group B when you realize there is no difference biologically between group A and group B.
    - seneca 4y ago
      Yes, in a world where those two groups have the exact same make up, it would mean that. That's not true at all in this context. There are differences between racial groups. No one is shocked and appalled that Jewish people are hugely over represented as Nobel prize winners, or that black people are wildly over represented in professional sports. It's difficult to disentangle what is just cultural impact, but they're patterns that a child could identify. If you work from a false premise, you end up with false results. The motivation behind the desire to believe that everyone is equally capable at everything is a good one, and individuals should be treated as if they have equal potential regardless of their immutable characteristics. It would be great if all groups were great at everything. If it were possible, I would make it so. However, falling prey to treating "ought" as "is" leads to pathological behaviors, which is exactly what is happening to the well-intentioned members of this movement.
      - SpeedilyDamage 4y ago
        > There are differences between racial groups. This is not true, genetically, and if you believe there is, that's a real problem for you. As for the differences in these communities as a result of differing treatment by others, you're damn right there are differences, and to the degree that those differences are caused by discrimination and hatred (and it's a high degree), that's exactly what we're trying to slowly improve. The problem with your egalitarian vision is that not everyone starts out on the same level, and if you ignore the systemic ways people are held back, you ruin any shot you might have at getting the end goal you seem to want, which seems to be "may the best person win". We all want that end result, but until you deal with reality, that's never going to happen.
crackercrews 4y ago
> in fact on the axis of gender, job opportunities have not only reached disparity but inverted: millennial and Gen Z women outperform their male counterparts This is likely due to age. Things shift when women start having kids. What you observe is also true of childless women versus childless men of certain ages. It does not hold as broadly for women and men with children, in the same age range.
- benj111 4y ago
  What the gp said is true. What you're referring to is the ongoing wage gap (women paid less than men) due to having time out to have kids. The point being, women aren't paid less than men for no reason, just that they take time out to have children, that interruption is what leads to the pay gap.

SpeedilyDamage 4y ago

[flagged]

crackercrews 4y ago
> white and asian folks absolutely do have more opportunities than other racial groups, and that’s borne out over and over again, whenever people look into these kinds of things. If you look at academic outcomes, black, hispanic, native american groups are still substantially further behind than white and asian groups. You haven't proven differential opportunity. You've only proven that some groups outperform other groups. You have not proven whether this is due to opportunities, discrimination, or hard work. Asian students, for example, spend more than 3x as much time studying as Black students.[1] Do you think there's a chance that this contributes to their higher representation at Caltech? 1: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/07311214221101422 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/07311214221101...
- SpeedilyDamage 4y ago
  If your cultural group is substantially underrepresented in academia, why would you participate in academics? If you know the game is rigged against you, it’s perfectly reasonable not to play. I wonder what black study rates would be if they were given the same chances as white and asian people are. Hopefully we’ll get there, but we’re still a long way off.
  - Manuel_D 4y ago
    > If you know the game is rigged against you, it’s perfectly reasonable not to play. As the other commenter explained, the mere existence of disparities in representation is not evidence of "rigging the game".
    - SpeedilyDamage 4y ago
      [flagged]
      - crackercrews 4y ago
        No one denies that bad things were done to African Americans. We're trying to figure out what slavery or Jim Crow has to do with whether a Black student in 2023 decides to study or not.
        SpeedilyDamage 4y ago
        [flagged]
        crackercrews 4y ago
        My people have been oppressed for centuries. Most people come from people that have been oppressed for centuries. It doesn't factor into how much I study. You should check out John McWhorter, who has a very different take on what it is to grow up Black these days. I have no idea whether you're Black, or how old you are. But the characterization you give is out of step with what a lot of people perceive. Folks like John find these sort of descriptions borderline offensive. Also demoralizing to Black kids, who shouldn't be told that the world is more awful than it actually is.
        SpeedilyDamage 4y ago
        [flagged]
seneca 4y ago
> Yes good, because white and asian folks absolutely do have more opportunities than other racial groups, and that’s borne out over and over again, whenever people look into these kinds of things. If you look at academic outcomes, black, hispanic, native american groups are still substantially further behind than white and asian groups. Group A outperforming Group B does not mean that Group A is being given unfair opportunities. It certainly doesn't justify intentionally, and illegally, giving Group B undeserved opportunities to the detriment of Group A.
- SpeedilyDamage 4y ago
  It absolutely does mean that group A is being given more opportunities than group B when you realize there is no difference biologically between group A and group B.
  - seneca 4y ago
    Yes, in a world where those two groups have the exact same make up, it would mean that. That's not true at all in this context. There are differences between racial groups. No one is shocked and appalled that Jewish people are hugely over represented as Nobel prize winners, or that black people are wildly over represented in professional sports. It's difficult to disentangle what is just cultural impact, but they're patterns that a child could identify. If you work from a false premise, you end up with false results. The motivation behind the desire to believe that everyone is equally capable at everything is a good one, and individuals should be treated as if they have equal potential regardless of their immutable characteristics. It would be great if all groups were great at everything. If it were possible, I would make it so. However, falling prey to treating "ought" as "is" leads to pathological behaviors, which is exactly what is happening to the well-intentioned members of this movement.
    - SpeedilyDamage 4y ago
      > There are differences between racial groups. This is not true, genetically, and if you believe there is, that's a real problem for you. As for the differences in these communities as a result of differing treatment by others, you're damn right there are differences, and to the degree that those differences are caused by discrimination and hatred (and it's a high degree), that's exactly what we're trying to slowly improve. The problem with your egalitarian vision is that not everyone starts out on the same level, and if you ignore the systemic ways people are held back, you ruin any shot you might have at getting the end goal you seem to want, which seems to be "may the best person win". We all want that end result, but until you deal with reality, that's never going to happen.

crackercrews 4y ago

> in fact on the axis of gender, job opportunities have not only reached disparity but inverted: millennial and Gen Z women outperform their male counterparts This is likely due to age. Things shift when women start having kids. What you observe is also true of childless women versus childless men of certain ages. It does not hold as broadly for women and men with children, in the same age range.

benj111 4y ago
What the gp said is true. What you're referring to is the ongoing wage gap (women paid less than men) due to having time out to have kids. The point being, women aren't paid less than men for no reason, just that they take time out to have children, that interruption is what leads to the pay gap.