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>> . At a few points during this discussion there was a complaint, and another person would respond with "but you can work around that by"... which does not inv

>> . At a few points during this discussion there was a complaint, and another person would respond with "but you can work around that by"... which does not invalidate the complaint. Or "oh, we have that feature, you just can't find it"... also still a valid complaint. This is a meta complaint I have with a LOT of software. The problem AFAICT stems from how we create software. For a developer the idea of editing a configuration file or other tedious minutia to get what we want isn't a big deal. It IS to "normal" users of software. A lot of times a developer will appreciate a simple way to do something even if they don't see it as being worth the time to implement. There is a reason people love Solvespace over FreeCAD even though it is incredibly limited in comparison. What it does, it does well by users and is even a joy to use in comparison. All software can benefit from going beyond "there exists a way to do what you want".

duxup 4y ago
It’s always a balance though isn’t it? I struggle to work with people can justify just about any complaint. Before I know it, I have suggestions to put wordy explanations everywhere, and a dozen unrelated buttons on a given page. All because three or four people who may not have been paying attention while they did the thing provided feedback… sometimes there are people who don’t even use the software…. I wish I could find a reliable way of getting feedback from a broad range of users not just a handful who wish to complain. I want the software to work for most people who: 1. Use the software. 2. Are trying. 3. Are reasonably good at their job. Sometimes I feel like I’m asked to make changes that hurt the majority at the behest of a few.
- phkahler 4y ago
  Oh I get that we have to decide what's worth doing and what's not. My point is that developers have some very different ideas about what's easy or reasonable. Just try to take that into account when deciding what's relevant. Think of as a bias that complicates an already subjective decision.
- flaviut 4y ago
  I think you're describing biases in your sampling methodology. When folks do surveys do political polls, for example, the worst & lowest quality polls are basically facebook polls because individuals select themselves by clicking an ad. Higher quality polls work by having a representative sample of the population, and getting that is very difficult & time consuming. In software, I think you have two options here: - it is practical to capture analytics from about 100% of the population, so if it's possible to analyze this data to determine if your software works well, great! - you can work hard to get feedback from a representative cohort. not sure how to do this... gift cards, swag, "you're part of the cool users club" communications? But be sure you're the one doing the sampling, and vet users' demographics (whatever that means for you) yourself.
  - Closi 4y ago
    Yes, both suffer from self-selection and also survivorship bias, however these steps further worsen that. It also depends what your goals as a project are - if you just want to build better software for your existing power-users, then great. If you want to become the next blender, you need to understand why people are using Maya/3DS Max instead (or in this example, why some people try to migrate to FreeCAD and fall back to using AutoCAD). It looks like the author was following this as much as possible though - i.e. not just focussing on some workarounds that a power-user had and focussing on how users should be able to do things easily without a lot of knowledge. The worlds most-used applications lower their barrier to entry as much as possible.
app4soft 4y ago
N.B. I'm a mod of r/SolveSpace community on Reddit.[0] > There is a reason people love Solvespace over FreeCAD even though it is incredibly limited in comparison. As a SolveSpace user for nearly a decade, who started to learn FreeCAD last month, I may say that both apps has own pros'n'cons: SolveSpace has simpler UI (but lack of features for experts), while FreeCAD has a lot of features (but UI to complex for "normal" users). About "limited in comparison", he is may latest quick comparison of both apps:[1] SolveSpace is a good "Stage 1" tool for sketching ideas, while FreeCAD is more like "Stage 2" tool for converting sketch into real product. SolveSpace exported DXF (2D & 3D wireframe) & STL/OBJ (mesh) could be used as a base for FreeCAD and other apps (Blender, LibreCAD).[2] While SolveSpace is not a competitor to FreeCAD, it still could be used for design wide range of complex things for 3D printing or shop drawings, including assemblies.[3,4,5,6] The main problem of SolveSpace, is that it still has broken STEP export, as a result exported solid surfaces are non-manifold and after import into FreeCAD it is almost unusable (it may require a lot of work with "Shape builder" and "Surface" Workbench to revert it back to solid body).[7] There are also many NURBS & mesh issues in SolveSpace worse to fix.[8] [0] https://old.reddit.com/r/solvespace https://old.reddit.com/r/solvespace [1] https://fosstodon.org/@app4soft/109812747058078617 https://fosstodon.org/@app4soft/109812747058078617 [2] https://fosstodon.org/@app4soft/109813465975914195 https://fosstodon.org/@app4soft/109813465975914195 [3] https://fosstodon.org/@app4soft/109740222184364152 https://fosstodon.org/@app4soft/109740222184364152 [4] https://fosstodon.org/@app4soft/107098074104816439 https://fosstodon.org/@app4soft/107098074104816439 [5] https://fosstodon.org/@app4soft/109804453127760634 https://fosstodon.org/@app4soft/109804453127760634 [6] https://twitter.com/app4soft/status/1479875838451585026 https://twitter.com/app4soft/status/1479875838451585026 [7] https://github.com/solvespace/solvespace/issues/206 https://github.com/solvespace/solvespace/issues/206 [8] https://github.com/solvespace/solvespace/issues/738 https://github.com/solvespace/solvespace/issues/738
- regularfry 4y ago
  I actually used SolveSpace as an onramp to FreeCAD while I was learning, entirely accidentally and unintentionally. There's enough overlap that what I learned on SolveSpace helped me to figure out what FreeCAD must be doing, so I knew that there was something to look for and the sort of things to search for. The fact that SolveSpace is a more limited tool makes it a very useful learning environment.

duxup 4y ago

It’s always a balance though isn’t it? I struggle to work with people can justify just about any complaint. Before I know it, I have suggestions to put wordy explanations everywhere, and a dozen unrelated buttons on a given page. All because three or four people who may not have been paying attention while they did the thing provided feedback… sometimes there are people who don’t even use the software…. I wish I could find a reliable way of getting feedback from a broad range of users not just a handful who wish to complain. I want the software to work for most people who: 1. Use the software. 2. Are trying. 3. Are reasonably good at their job. Sometimes I feel like I’m asked to make changes that hurt the majority at the behest of a few.

phkahler 4y ago
Oh I get that we have to decide what's worth doing and what's not. My point is that developers have some very different ideas about what's easy or reasonable. Just try to take that into account when deciding what's relevant. Think of as a bias that complicates an already subjective decision.
flaviut 4y ago
I think you're describing biases in your sampling methodology. When folks do surveys do political polls, for example, the worst & lowest quality polls are basically facebook polls because individuals select themselves by clicking an ad. Higher quality polls work by having a representative sample of the population, and getting that is very difficult & time consuming. In software, I think you have two options here: - it is practical to capture analytics from about 100% of the population, so if it's possible to analyze this data to determine if your software works well, great! - you can work hard to get feedback from a representative cohort. not sure how to do this... gift cards, swag, "you're part of the cool users club" communications? But be sure you're the one doing the sampling, and vet users' demographics (whatever that means for you) yourself.
- Closi 4y ago
  Yes, both suffer from self-selection and also survivorship bias, however these steps further worsen that. It also depends what your goals as a project are - if you just want to build better software for your existing power-users, then great. If you want to become the next blender, you need to understand why people are using Maya/3DS Max instead (or in this example, why some people try to migrate to FreeCAD and fall back to using AutoCAD). It looks like the author was following this as much as possible though - i.e. not just focussing on some workarounds that a power-user had and focussing on how users should be able to do things easily without a lot of knowledge. The worlds most-used applications lower their barrier to entry as much as possible.

app4soft 4y ago

N.B. I'm a mod of r/SolveSpace community on Reddit.[0] > There is a reason people love Solvespace over FreeCAD even though it is incredibly limited in comparison. As a SolveSpace user for nearly a decade, who started to learn FreeCAD last month, I may say that both apps has own pros'n'cons: SolveSpace has simpler UI (but lack of features for experts), while FreeCAD has a lot of features (but UI to complex for "normal" users). About "limited in comparison", he is may latest quick comparison of both apps:[1] SolveSpace is a good "Stage 1" tool for sketching ideas, while FreeCAD is more like "Stage 2" tool for converting sketch into real product. SolveSpace exported DXF (2D & 3D wireframe) & STL/OBJ (mesh) could be used as a base for FreeCAD and other apps (Blender, LibreCAD).[2] While SolveSpace is not a competitor to FreeCAD, it still could be used for design wide range of complex things for 3D printing or shop drawings, including assemblies.[3,4,5,6] The main problem of SolveSpace, is that it still has broken STEP export, as a result exported solid surfaces are non-manifold and after import into FreeCAD it is almost unusable (it may require a lot of work with "Shape builder" and "Surface" Workbench to revert it back to solid body).[7] There are also many NURBS & mesh issues in SolveSpace worse to fix.[8] [0] https://old.reddit.com/r/solvespace https://old.reddit.com/r/solvespace [1] https://fosstodon.org/@app4soft/109812747058078617 https://fosstodon.org/@app4soft/109812747058078617 [2] https://fosstodon.org/@app4soft/109813465975914195 https://fosstodon.org/@app4soft/109813465975914195 [3] https://fosstodon.org/@app4soft/109740222184364152 https://fosstodon.org/@app4soft/109740222184364152 [4] https://fosstodon.org/@app4soft/107098074104816439 https://fosstodon.org/@app4soft/107098074104816439 [5] https://fosstodon.org/@app4soft/109804453127760634 https://fosstodon.org/@app4soft/109804453127760634 [6] https://twitter.com/app4soft/status/1479875838451585026 https://twitter.com/app4soft/status/1479875838451585026 [7] https://github.com/solvespace/solvespace/issues/206 https://github.com/solvespace/solvespace/issues/206 [8] https://github.com/solvespace/solvespace/issues/738 https://github.com/solvespace/solvespace/issues/738

regularfry 4y ago
I actually used SolveSpace as an onramp to FreeCAD while I was learning, entirely accidentally and unintentionally. There's enough overlap that what I learned on SolveSpace helped me to figure out what FreeCAD must be doing, so I knew that there was something to look for and the sort of things to search for. The fact that SolveSpace is a more limited tool makes it a very useful learning environment.