4 ms·

Is this really an issue? The kind of signalling system needed to safely operate trains seems well-understood and doesn't require vast amounts of data storage,

Is this really an issue? The kind of signalling system needed to safely operate trains seems well-understood and doesn't require vast amounts of data storage, and it's been pretty reliable since the 1970s apparently: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SelTrac https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SelTrac So data about the system configuration is stored on floppies instead of USB drives - so what? It might even have the benefit of nobody being able to easily corrupt the system by plugging in a USB drive loaded with some Stuxnet-type malware.

fredoralive 4y ago
An obvious issue is that you may have issues finding replacement parts for the drive mechanisms, or even the discs themselves. Things will wear out and fail, and what was 30 years ago a commodity item is now either an expensive niche spare, or an eBay scavenger hunt.
- nemo44x 4y ago
  Just get an emulator. You don’t need physical devices for old tech.
  - fredoralive 4y ago
    Yes[1], although as the signalling system on a railway is safety critical, you are probably going to have to go through a fair amount of safety checks to make sure the emulator can’t somehow feed invalid data to to main unit. [1] although the original poster was worried about various USB attacks etc, and that’s kinda how the emulator would be loaded nowadays?
    - nemo44x 4y ago
      Security through obscurity isn’t security.
      - fredoralive 4y ago
        The issue isn’t security through obscurity, the protocols and physical layer between the signalling system and disc drive are going to be documented. The issues are more making sure that the emulator is an accurate emulation, and can’t somehow feed false data. The “DOS” on the signalling system might be a somewhat eccentric system written in the 70s, and might trigger edge cases in an emulator designed for generic CP/M or MS-DOS systems. It might not be (and probably isn’t), but when the worst case is a train crash, you have to be cautious.
        nemo44x 4y ago
        Yeah I hear ya, examine it and proceed with caution. I’m just saying it’s probably an extremely simple system and physical, outdated media isn’t a blocker. So many of these old systems are unbelievably simple by todays standards in terms of the hardware we have to allow layer after layer of abstraction. Back in the day the complexity was squeezing it into limited spaces.
  - anigbrowl 4y ago
    It might even have the benefit of nobody being able to easily corrupt the system by plugging in a USB drive Just get an emulator. Context matters.
userbinator 4y ago
It might even have the benefit of nobody being able to easily corrupt the system by plugging in a USB drive loaded with some Stuxnet-type malware. That was my thought too --- and given the deteriorating skills that even malware programmers today have been affected by, fitting it on a floppy might be a challenge itself.
Oxidation 4y ago
If the problem is that they can't get disks or drives, you can buy an "industrial" 5.25 inch USB emulator for $250. If the problem is that the system is just that old, and that's the only criticism, that sounds like it's a near-perfect-for-the-job system that's firmly at the bottom of the bathtub curve¹. Electronics of the era can plausibly continue almost indefinitely: plenty of industrial and aeronautical equipment does, as well as things like the tank-like HP printers. ¹: if it's coming up the other side of the bathtub and failures across the system are accelerating, then they should watch out.
terminalcommand 4y ago
Fun fact, due to corruption Turkey's newly built suburban rail system called Marmaray does not have signalization. They accepted the project without it. For years, we did not know when the next train would arrive. Now we have tables but they are based on estimates and are totally wrong (of course). They cannot risk running two trains on the same track so they suspend the rail system whenever an international train is passing. My country managed to invent a new train signalization, whatsapp and radio signalization. We experience frequent train crashes and delays because of this. Don't take any technology for granted, corruption can make it cost more, take longer and make it more dangerous.
- martinald 4y ago
  I really don't think a train line with ~30tph in each direction is operating with no signals! I think you may be misunderstanding what 'signalisation' is? It's not just live display boards etc. https://press.siemens.com/global/en/pressrelease/turkeys-marmaray-rail-line-enters-service-siemens-mobility-technology https://press.siemens.com/global/en/pressrelease/turkeys-mar... Siemens says it has both CBTC and ERTMS. I imagine the interaction of the two is the problem, Elizabeth line in London was delayed by nearly 4 years because of the complexities of integrating multiple signalling systems (EL has 3 to contend with). It's actually a common problem of lines completed recently, as ERTMS wasn't considered robust enough to deal with "metro" style frequencies at the time, so CBTC was overlaid on top, but generally made every project that took this approach a bit of a disaster. Now ERTMS is definitely mature enough for metro style frequencies new projects wouldn't use a proprietary CBTC system in conjunction with it.
  - iggldiggl 4y ago
    > Now ERTMS is definitely mature enough for metro style frequencies Is it quite? In Germany they're planning to resignal the core of the Stuttgart S-Bahn system with ETCS, but found that there is still a bit of development work to do in order to actually unlock additional capacity using ETCS, and so the whole project is treated a bit as a sort of pioneering pilot scheme for high capacity applications of ETCS. In the UK ETCS is now in service on the Thameslink core, but AFAIK it has yet to see its design capacity of 24 tph being fully utilised – peeking through realtimetrains.co.uk, it looks like the current maximum peak service is 20 tph.

fredoralive 4y ago

An obvious issue is that you may have issues finding replacement parts for the drive mechanisms, or even the discs themselves. Things will wear out and fail, and what was 30 years ago a commodity item is now either an expensive niche spare, or an eBay scavenger hunt.

nemo44x 4y ago
Just get an emulator. You don’t need physical devices for old tech.
- fredoralive 4y ago
  Yes[1], although as the signalling system on a railway is safety critical, you are probably going to have to go through a fair amount of safety checks to make sure the emulator can’t somehow feed invalid data to to main unit. [1] although the original poster was worried about various USB attacks etc, and that’s kinda how the emulator would be loaded nowadays?
  - nemo44x 4y ago
    Security through obscurity isn’t security.
    - fredoralive 4y ago
      The issue isn’t security through obscurity, the protocols and physical layer between the signalling system and disc drive are going to be documented. The issues are more making sure that the emulator is an accurate emulation, and can’t somehow feed false data. The “DOS” on the signalling system might be a somewhat eccentric system written in the 70s, and might trigger edge cases in an emulator designed for generic CP/M or MS-DOS systems. It might not be (and probably isn’t), but when the worst case is a train crash, you have to be cautious.
      - nemo44x 4y ago
        Yeah I hear ya, examine it and proceed with caution. I’m just saying it’s probably an extremely simple system and physical, outdated media isn’t a blocker. So many of these old systems are unbelievably simple by todays standards in terms of the hardware we have to allow layer after layer of abstraction. Back in the day the complexity was squeezing it into limited spaces.
- anigbrowl 4y ago
  It might even have the benefit of nobody being able to easily corrupt the system by plugging in a USB drive Just get an emulator. Context matters.

userbinator 4y ago

It might even have the benefit of nobody being able to easily corrupt the system by plugging in a USB drive loaded with some Stuxnet-type malware. That was my thought too --- and given the deteriorating skills that even malware programmers today have been affected by, fitting it on a floppy might be a challenge itself.

Oxidation 4y ago

If the problem is that they can't get disks or drives, you can buy an "industrial" 5.25 inch USB emulator for $250. If the problem is that the system is just that old, and that's the only criticism, that sounds like it's a near-perfect-for-the-job system that's firmly at the bottom of the bathtub curve¹. Electronics of the era can plausibly continue almost indefinitely: plenty of industrial and aeronautical equipment does, as well as things like the tank-like HP printers. ¹: if it's coming up the other side of the bathtub and failures across the system are accelerating, then they should watch out.

terminalcommand 4y ago

Fun fact, due to corruption Turkey's newly built suburban rail system called Marmaray does not have signalization. They accepted the project without it. For years, we did not know when the next train would arrive. Now we have tables but they are based on estimates and are totally wrong (of course). They cannot risk running two trains on the same track so they suspend the rail system whenever an international train is passing. My country managed to invent a new train signalization, whatsapp and radio signalization. We experience frequent train crashes and delays because of this. Don't take any technology for granted, corruption can make it cost more, take longer and make it more dangerous.

martinald 4y ago
I really don't think a train line with ~30tph in each direction is operating with no signals! I think you may be misunderstanding what 'signalisation' is? It's not just live display boards etc. https://press.siemens.com/global/en/pressrelease/turkeys-marmaray-rail-line-enters-service-siemens-mobility-technology https://press.siemens.com/global/en/pressrelease/turkeys-mar... Siemens says it has both CBTC and ERTMS. I imagine the interaction of the two is the problem, Elizabeth line in London was delayed by nearly 4 years because of the complexities of integrating multiple signalling systems (EL has 3 to contend with). It's actually a common problem of lines completed recently, as ERTMS wasn't considered robust enough to deal with "metro" style frequencies at the time, so CBTC was overlaid on top, but generally made every project that took this approach a bit of a disaster. Now ERTMS is definitely mature enough for metro style frequencies new projects wouldn't use a proprietary CBTC system in conjunction with it.
- iggldiggl 4y ago
  > Now ERTMS is definitely mature enough for metro style frequencies Is it quite? In Germany they're planning to resignal the core of the Stuttgart S-Bahn system with ETCS, but found that there is still a bit of development work to do in order to actually unlock additional capacity using ETCS, and so the whole project is treated a bit as a sort of pioneering pilot scheme for high capacity applications of ETCS. In the UK ETCS is now in service on the Thameslink core, but AFAIK it has yet to see its design capacity of 24 tph being fully utilised – peeking through realtimetrains.co.uk, it looks like the current maximum peak service is 20 tph.