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I agree that extra pollution comes from manufacturing and said as much in my post already. But I believe the fact that this laptop can last at least 10 years +

I agree that extra pollution comes from manufacturing and said as much in my post already. But I believe the fact that this laptop can last at least 10 years + it will consume a single order of magnitude less power over these 10 years adds up to more environment care. The production is already completed. The damage has been done. Let's use the machines at least because they are 10x more efficient and we can slow down the environmental damage. Also to many of us outright not buying machines means we gotta switch industry. And a lot of us don't want to. > It is still sending a signal upstream that such a computer can be sold. That's a bit out there though; it only signals the vendor that people hold on to their older machines for longer time. If anything, the laptop I got second-hand is no longer even listed on the vendor's AliExpress store. It only has a marketing page on the website and you can only find it second-hand or here and there on the internet.

rakoo 4y ago
I think we need to take a step back and see the big picture. There are 10-year olds computers sitting unused; as a whole, it can fill a percentage of usages. If it does then the people using them don't need to buy another one, new or refurbished. If they don't need to buy, other people can't sell as easily. If they can't sell as easily, they might use it longer, and not need/want to buy another one, old or refurbished, etc... It's a whole market and if constructors see that the overall tendency is of using longer, they will get the signal that there can be less sales overall. And thus build less. Everything we do is part of a larger system, and I believe we should understand what the system is like and how it works if we want to have a real impact.
- pdimitar 4y ago
  I believe many of us are aware of the bigger picture outlined by you, but you keep ignoring the point that the previous 10-year old computers burn much more electricity. And as I already said, the newer more efficient machines have been built already so we might as well use them and help the planet by using less watts. The process you describe is yet to happen e.g. the computers I have I don't want to replace unless they crash and burn. So in 5-ish years I believe vendors will slow down manufacturing indeed because many people do like I do: they get the newer more power-efficient stuff and then hold on to it for longer periods.
  - oriolid 4y ago
    I'm not completely convinced. The early PCs didn't need heat sinks or fans other than the 80mm PSU fan. They were inefficient, but the total power wasn't that huge. Even for newer computers, I have a Raspberry Pi 2 that draws 3 watts at maximum load and less when idle. It's powerful enough for what it does and even with this energy crisis it would need to run for years before the energy savings would cover the cost of a new model.
    - pdimitar 4y ago
      Yep, it's not a super clear win. But I was talking about the old desktop or all-in-one machines. They still draw a bit more but you're also right that the amortized cost blurs things. But since I plan on using the refurbished modern machines that I got, for years, maybe the equation will be in my favor... eventually. :)
      - wsc981 4y ago
        I wonder if the same is true for a -say- G3 based laptop or desktop. Apple’s laptops would often be usable much longer on batteries compared to its Wintel counterparts.
        NovaPenguin 4y ago
        It is an interesting question. Apple hyper-optimized the OS for PPC when it was still relevant. Even modern PPC OS's with a good 20 years of additional compiler optimizations don't run those things anywhere near as well.
  - rakoo 4y ago
    Oh I'm well aware that newer machines use less electricity and that's good; it's just not necessarily true that, looking at the entire lifecycle, it is better for the planet compared to taking your older computer out of the closet. Again, I'm not saying what you're doing is bad, if everyone could fulfill their digital needs and wants out of second hand, that'd be awesome. I only wanted to point out that using less electricity isn't automatically better.
- darkwater 4y ago
  I recently literally took out of a drawer my old Sony Vaio laptop bought in 2011 and converted to a home server, replacing a RPI4 whose SD card just died (I used it for home automation). Well, the performance upgrade has been astonishing for me, probably it was due to the SD vs the SSD in the Vaio but I'm not going back. I'm actually thinking about self-hosting much more now!
ghaff 4y ago
I still use a 2015 MacBook Pro daily. (Also have an Apple Silicon MacBook but I keep the Intel-based one downstairs and pretty much just use it as a web browser.) It's had its battery replaced (and the screen replaced under warranty for a defect) but it's just fine for my needs. The power issue is more with large desktop systems. I was setting up a moderately old but fairly hefty system as a file server. Couldn't get it working--which I discovered belatedly was an issue related to my network switch--so I bought an unpopulated Synology box. But, given power consumption, I also realized that was probably the more cost-effective thing to do anyway.

rakoo 4y ago

I think we need to take a step back and see the big picture. There are 10-year olds computers sitting unused; as a whole, it can fill a percentage of usages. If it does then the people using them don't need to buy another one, new or refurbished. If they don't need to buy, other people can't sell as easily. If they can't sell as easily, they might use it longer, and not need/want to buy another one, old or refurbished, etc... It's a whole market and if constructors see that the overall tendency is of using longer, they will get the signal that there can be less sales overall. And thus build less. Everything we do is part of a larger system, and I believe we should understand what the system is like and how it works if we want to have a real impact.

pdimitar 4y ago
I believe many of us are aware of the bigger picture outlined by you, but you keep ignoring the point that the previous 10-year old computers burn much more electricity. And as I already said, the newer more efficient machines have been built already so we might as well use them and help the planet by using less watts. The process you describe is yet to happen e.g. the computers I have I don't want to replace unless they crash and burn. So in 5-ish years I believe vendors will slow down manufacturing indeed because many people do like I do: they get the newer more power-efficient stuff and then hold on to it for longer periods.
- oriolid 4y ago
  I'm not completely convinced. The early PCs didn't need heat sinks or fans other than the 80mm PSU fan. They were inefficient, but the total power wasn't that huge. Even for newer computers, I have a Raspberry Pi 2 that draws 3 watts at maximum load and less when idle. It's powerful enough for what it does and even with this energy crisis it would need to run for years before the energy savings would cover the cost of a new model.
  - pdimitar 4y ago
    Yep, it's not a super clear win. But I was talking about the old desktop or all-in-one machines. They still draw a bit more but you're also right that the amortized cost blurs things. But since I plan on using the refurbished modern machines that I got, for years, maybe the equation will be in my favor... eventually. :)
    - wsc981 4y ago
      I wonder if the same is true for a -say- G3 based laptop or desktop. Apple’s laptops would often be usable much longer on batteries compared to its Wintel counterparts.
      - NovaPenguin 4y ago
        It is an interesting question. Apple hyper-optimized the OS for PPC when it was still relevant. Even modern PPC OS's with a good 20 years of additional compiler optimizations don't run those things anywhere near as well.
- rakoo 4y ago
  Oh I'm well aware that newer machines use less electricity and that's good; it's just not necessarily true that, looking at the entire lifecycle, it is better for the planet compared to taking your older computer out of the closet. Again, I'm not saying what you're doing is bad, if everyone could fulfill their digital needs and wants out of second hand, that'd be awesome. I only wanted to point out that using less electricity isn't automatically better.
darkwater 4y ago
I recently literally took out of a drawer my old Sony Vaio laptop bought in 2011 and converted to a home server, replacing a RPI4 whose SD card just died (I used it for home automation). Well, the performance upgrade has been astonishing for me, probably it was due to the SD vs the SSD in the Vaio but I'm not going back. I'm actually thinking about self-hosting much more now!

ghaff 4y ago

I still use a 2015 MacBook Pro daily. (Also have an Apple Silicon MacBook but I keep the Intel-based one downstairs and pretty much just use it as a web browser.) It's had its battery replaced (and the screen replaced under warranty for a defect) but it's just fine for my needs. The power issue is more with large desktop systems. I was setting up a moderately old but fairly hefty system as a file server. Couldn't get it working--which I discovered belatedly was an issue related to my network switch--so I bought an unpopulated Synology box. But, given power consumption, I also realized that was probably the more cost-effective thing to do anyway.