4 ms·

> This is happening far outside the scope you're limiting it to, and it matters Do you mean that you usually interact at work with people than cannot properly

> This is happening far outside the scope you're limiting it to, and it matters Do you mean that you usually interact at work with people than cannot properly capitalize sentences, like we learned to do in primary school in practically any language that uses the Latin alphabet? I capitalize English because capitalization in my language (and any other language I can write) follows the same exact rules. It is a rule, it doesn't take much, capitalizing sentences at best proves that people know the basic grammar rules of the language and know when and how to use them, nothing more. Not doing it proves that people either don't care or don't know the basic rules of the language, which says a lot more than doing it properly.

jklm 4y ago
I think you hit the nail on the head - at a certain point caring about every single rule isn’t effective or is actually net less effective. On HN I’ll use correct punctuation, grammar, and a wider set of vocabulary because there’s a good chance my message will come across more clearly. For general emails, I’ll write with simpler language because it’s very much a get-in-get-out activity especially with more senior stakeholders. For work comms, what’s the value in typing HN-style? Everyone already knows everyone else is smart. I believe communicating tone is more valuable than perfect punctuation and grammar, which make it much harder to get that across. Or as my grandma used to say - you don’t treat people you want to be treated, you treat them the way they want to be treated.
- peoplefromibiza 4y ago
  > at a certain point caring about every single rule isn’t effective or is actually net less effective My point is the exact opposite though: I've been writing like this for all of my life, for at least 40 years, to write like I don't care I need to actually think about it and put a lot more effort into it, because it feels unnatural, looks wrong and makes me immediately doubt of the quality of the content I produced. Especially at work, where when I write something, it is for other people to read, sometimes many. But I also capitalize my personal notes. So, to me, your explanation of why you don't do it sounds like "look at me, I don't follow rules because we are all smart here, right guys? ... right?". Don't want to be offensive, but correct grammar should be muscle memory by now. Relying on muscle memory is good because it works on autopilot and let you focus on what's important.
  - jklm 4y ago
    That's fair, but your writing style mostly optimizes for you, your comfort, and your speed. And I say that as someone who started memorizing SAT words at the age of 8 - most people actually prefer to read a high school level (myself included in work contexts). I didn't learn this lesson the hard way until I was past my mid-20s. When you write something for others, it's far better to optimize for them rather than for yourself. Let's say you spend twice as much time writing something in an 'odd' way, but it gets your 50% more reach or alignment or funding. That's probably actually a great use of your time. > So, to me, your explanation of why you don't do it sounds like "look at me, I don't follow rules because we are all smart here, right guys? ... right?". It's not about being contrarian, it's about the tradeoff. Tone is incredibly important in most situations. When you write with perfect grammar and punctuation, most people don't know how to read into the nuance. Happy? Joyful? Pleased? Content? There's very little, if any, common understanding of the intensity or undertone in those adjectives. Imagine you're working with a new PM and he tells you the team's progress is 'acceptable.' What does that mean exactly? Is he happy with it? Is he mildly annoyed? Does he feel like things are off track and actually wants to talk more? So how do we build this common understanding? It turns out most people have actually already built up a language with their friends! Through texts/DMs/etc. So when that language is ported over to a work context, most people immediately grasp it. You can conform to the world or the world can conform to you. <-- A sentence where tone would be helpful.
    - peoplefromibiza 4y ago
      > When you write with perfect grammar and punctuation, most people don't know how to read into the nuance I still can't understand the argument here, it sounds so off that seems fabricated to me. When you read the Divine Comedy (we study it in high school in Italy) the grammar is not in current modern Italian, the style is from 550 years ago, the poem is written in hendecasyllables in terza rima [1], the references are often obscure, but in no point of it the tone is hard to understand, because the author conveys it explicitly. l’ora del tempo e la dolce stagione; ma non sì che paura non mi desse la vista che m’apparve d’un leone. Questi parea che contra me venisse con la test’alta e con rabbiosa fame, sì che parea che l’aere ne tremesse. Dante is saying that it was a beautiful day of spring, but not as beautiful to not be scared by the sight of a lion that went his direction, looking enraged by the hunger, making "the air tremble" Writing is a non-verbal, not-in-person, form of communication, you can't look for what's not in it. Assuming a neutral tone unless specified otherwise, it's always the best bet. Also, as I've said before, improper grammar could also mean "I don't know the grammar of your language well enough", if I'm writing French, I make a lot of mistakes because I don't use it very often, so the tone is the last of my concerns and the people reading it could easily think it's from a 9 year old kid who hasn't finished primary school yet. If you think that correct grammar is more than just "the proper way to use the language" you're most probably seeing too much into it. > Imagine you're working with a new PM and he tells you the team's progress is 'acceptable.' What does that mean exactly? it means "acceptable" in a scale from 0 to 10 acceptable is >= 6 and < 7 but, when in doubt, ask, words are free. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terza_rima https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terza_rima

jklm 4y ago

I think you hit the nail on the head - at a certain point caring about every single rule isn’t effective or is actually net less effective. On HN I’ll use correct punctuation, grammar, and a wider set of vocabulary because there’s a good chance my message will come across more clearly. For general emails, I’ll write with simpler language because it’s very much a get-in-get-out activity especially with more senior stakeholders. For work comms, what’s the value in typing HN-style? Everyone already knows everyone else is smart. I believe communicating tone is more valuable than perfect punctuation and grammar, which make it much harder to get that across. Or as my grandma used to say - you don’t treat people you want to be treated, you treat them the way they want to be treated.

peoplefromibiza 4y ago
> at a certain point caring about every single rule isn’t effective or is actually net less effective My point is the exact opposite though: I've been writing like this for all of my life, for at least 40 years, to write like I don't care I need to actually think about it and put a lot more effort into it, because it feels unnatural, looks wrong and makes me immediately doubt of the quality of the content I produced. Especially at work, where when I write something, it is for other people to read, sometimes many. But I also capitalize my personal notes. So, to me, your explanation of why you don't do it sounds like "look at me, I don't follow rules because we are all smart here, right guys? ... right?". Don't want to be offensive, but correct grammar should be muscle memory by now. Relying on muscle memory is good because it works on autopilot and let you focus on what's important.
- jklm 4y ago
  That's fair, but your writing style mostly optimizes for you, your comfort, and your speed. And I say that as someone who started memorizing SAT words at the age of 8 - most people actually prefer to read a high school level (myself included in work contexts). I didn't learn this lesson the hard way until I was past my mid-20s. When you write something for others, it's far better to optimize for them rather than for yourself. Let's say you spend twice as much time writing something in an 'odd' way, but it gets your 50% more reach or alignment or funding. That's probably actually a great use of your time. > So, to me, your explanation of why you don't do it sounds like "look at me, I don't follow rules because we are all smart here, right guys? ... right?". It's not about being contrarian, it's about the tradeoff. Tone is incredibly important in most situations. When you write with perfect grammar and punctuation, most people don't know how to read into the nuance. Happy? Joyful? Pleased? Content? There's very little, if any, common understanding of the intensity or undertone in those adjectives. Imagine you're working with a new PM and he tells you the team's progress is 'acceptable.' What does that mean exactly? Is he happy with it? Is he mildly annoyed? Does he feel like things are off track and actually wants to talk more? So how do we build this common understanding? It turns out most people have actually already built up a language with their friends! Through texts/DMs/etc. So when that language is ported over to a work context, most people immediately grasp it. You can conform to the world or the world can conform to you. <-- A sentence where tone would be helpful.
  - peoplefromibiza 4y ago
    > When you write with perfect grammar and punctuation, most people don't know how to read into the nuance I still can't understand the argument here, it sounds so off that seems fabricated to me. When you read the Divine Comedy (we study it in high school in Italy) the grammar is not in current modern Italian, the style is from 550 years ago, the poem is written in hendecasyllables in terza rima [1], the references are often obscure, but in no point of it the tone is hard to understand, because the author conveys it explicitly. l’ora del tempo e la dolce stagione; ma non sì che paura non mi desse la vista che m’apparve d’un leone. Questi parea che contra me venisse con la test’alta e con rabbiosa fame, sì che parea che l’aere ne tremesse. Dante is saying that it was a beautiful day of spring, but not as beautiful to not be scared by the sight of a lion that went his direction, looking enraged by the hunger, making "the air tremble" Writing is a non-verbal, not-in-person, form of communication, you can't look for what's not in it. Assuming a neutral tone unless specified otherwise, it's always the best bet. Also, as I've said before, improper grammar could also mean "I don't know the grammar of your language well enough", if I'm writing French, I make a lot of mistakes because I don't use it very often, so the tone is the last of my concerns and the people reading it could easily think it's from a 9 year old kid who hasn't finished primary school yet. If you think that correct grammar is more than just "the proper way to use the language" you're most probably seeing too much into it. > Imagine you're working with a new PM and he tells you the team's progress is 'acceptable.' What does that mean exactly? it means "acceptable" in a scale from 0 to 10 acceptable is >= 6 and < 7 but, when in doubt, ask, words are free. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terza_rima https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terza_rima