5 ms·

I scored most (if not all) of my career-defining opportunities from hallway convos after a meeting, or chatting while waiting for coffee to brew, so YMMV.

Implicated 4y ago
Question for you to help satisfy my curiosity about this a bit... do you also enjoy socializing in bars or the like?
- atsuzaki 4y ago
  Not really. I'm very introverted and not good with strangers, actually in the process of getting an autism diagnosis right now. But I really enjoy socializing with folks with similar interests (e.g., tech), and I work with a lot of neurodivergent colleagues which puts less of a strain on my social battery as I don't have to be "normal"---we're all weird and it's fine. Still, my social battery drains quickly nonetheless, I tend to have to leave after hanging out for an hour or two.
giantg2 4y ago
This seems wild to me. It seems like the company and managers are doing something wrong if all your advancement is coming from random unofficial chats.
- guhidalg 4y ago
  Wow where do you work that management has their shit together that well?
  - giantg2 4y ago
    Management doesn't have it together, but they do make suggestions about taking on certain projects etc that are good for your career and at least talk about plans to getting to the next level (sometimes).
  - moremetadata 4y ago
    Norwich Union (Aviva) the insurance company have a system called The Wall iirc (been over decade). Its a free for all for asking questions, sending messages, making unofficial FYI notes, its an attempt to document those conversations that would have otherwise taken place between individuals. Everyone from the top down has read/write access. Main objective to document those conversations, so nothing gets missed, like people being otherwise engaged in meetings/phone calls. Self Censorship takes place because everyone can view it, reduces staff harassment problems.
    - h0p3 4y ago
      That's a good idea.
- The_Colonel 4y ago
  That's exactly how managers advance. Through good personal relationships across the organization, rapport, "alignment".
  - giantg2 4y ago
    Maybe for managers. But really it should be about delivering completed projects, especially for technical folks.
    - joxel 4y ago
      If you’re not just a code monkey than those chats are great for coming up with new ideas and fleshing them out over time. But hey you can also just be a code monkey that completes projects assigned to them. To each their own I guess.
      - giantg2 4y ago
        Yes, and people can be assholes if they want. Maybe what you describe works at some places or for specific people. Many companies will ignore your ideas. Your title is code monkey and that's all you do - shut up and listen to us important people. Some managers are very threatened by their subordinates, or are unimaginative. The business side generally wants what they want. God forbid you suggest some new approach.
        joxel 4y ago
        Makes sense. I'd just be trying to get out of a job like that, and don't see how that's desirable at all. You seem to think its the better way though.
        giantg2 4y ago
        I never said it was the better way. It's simply reality, at least for most jobs (larger non-tech companies).
- RestlessMind 4y ago
  Tell me again how long have you been working? For as long as human society has existed, advancements came from in-person connections which were fostered by these random unofficial chats. If you expect anything else, you might expect humans to not be like humans.
User23 4y ago
That's called office politics.
kelnos 4y ago
So we should require that everyone be in an office, so that people like you can get their career-defining opportunities? Maybe many of us would be fine making that trade-off: fewer opportunities for career-defining opportunities in exchange for the elimination of a commute, more-comfortable working arrangements, and a much more flexible work schedule. Not everything in life is about career advancement.
- ornornor 4y ago
  > Not everything in life is about career advancement. Well said :)
  - bilvar 4y ago
    Yes, and when people going to the office get more opportunities, more advancement and higher compensation, he/she will be complaining for making "less money for the same work". Or they will start complaining about how unfair is that those opportunities only arise in the office and demand that there will be "procedures" for them to be available remotely.
    - ornornor 4y ago
      Not speaking for GP, but as far as I’m concerned I’m happy to stay far far far away from office politics games and getting paid less than those who do while having half or a quarter of their workloads.
      - bilvar 4y ago
        See reply to GP. I commend you too.
    - kelnos 4y ago
      Long ago I accepted that if I want better work-life balance and more flexible arrangements, there would be consequences. In my post above I explicitly called it out as a trade-off: I am totally fine with lower pay and fewer promotions if it means I get to live more of my life outside work. If you're not ok with that, that's your choice to make: find jobs that give you those opportunities, and tilt your work-life balance toward work. Hell, you should be happy that I have more flexibility in my working arrangements and can make this trade-off: less competition for you to get what you want.
ljf 4y ago
How much of your working life was in person vs remote? I agree most of my 'big breaks' were face to face, that was due to the point I was in my career at that time. I've still had some great progression during remote working times - sometimes you just need to make these things happen - contacting someone just for a chat if that is what you need, turning up to online meetings early to spend a little time chatting before the proper meeting, or asking specific people if they have time to stay on. I really think half the problem is that we aren't yet used to the new rules of engagement, and are still figuring out what feels right. But opportunity is still there.

Implicated 4y ago

Question for you to help satisfy my curiosity about this a bit... do you also enjoy socializing in bars or the like?

atsuzaki 4y ago
Not really. I'm very introverted and not good with strangers, actually in the process of getting an autism diagnosis right now. But I really enjoy socializing with folks with similar interests (e.g., tech), and I work with a lot of neurodivergent colleagues which puts less of a strain on my social battery as I don't have to be "normal"---we're all weird and it's fine. Still, my social battery drains quickly nonetheless, I tend to have to leave after hanging out for an hour or two.

giantg2 4y ago

This seems wild to me. It seems like the company and managers are doing something wrong if all your advancement is coming from random unofficial chats.

guhidalg 4y ago
Wow where do you work that management has their shit together that well?
- giantg2 4y ago
  Management doesn't have it together, but they do make suggestions about taking on certain projects etc that are good for your career and at least talk about plans to getting to the next level (sometimes).
- moremetadata 4y ago
  Norwich Union (Aviva) the insurance company have a system called The Wall iirc (been over decade). Its a free for all for asking questions, sending messages, making unofficial FYI notes, its an attempt to document those conversations that would have otherwise taken place between individuals. Everyone from the top down has read/write access. Main objective to document those conversations, so nothing gets missed, like people being otherwise engaged in meetings/phone calls. Self Censorship takes place because everyone can view it, reduces staff harassment problems.
  - h0p3 4y ago
    That's a good idea.
The_Colonel 4y ago
That's exactly how managers advance. Through good personal relationships across the organization, rapport, "alignment".
- giantg2 4y ago
  Maybe for managers. But really it should be about delivering completed projects, especially for technical folks.
  - joxel 4y ago
    If you’re not just a code monkey than those chats are great for coming up with new ideas and fleshing them out over time. But hey you can also just be a code monkey that completes projects assigned to them. To each their own I guess.
    - giantg2 4y ago
      Yes, and people can be assholes if they want. Maybe what you describe works at some places or for specific people. Many companies will ignore your ideas. Your title is code monkey and that's all you do - shut up and listen to us important people. Some managers are very threatened by their subordinates, or are unimaginative. The business side generally wants what they want. God forbid you suggest some new approach.
      - joxel 4y ago
        Makes sense. I'd just be trying to get out of a job like that, and don't see how that's desirable at all. You seem to think its the better way though.
        giantg2 4y ago
        I never said it was the better way. It's simply reality, at least for most jobs (larger non-tech companies).
RestlessMind 4y ago
Tell me again how long have you been working? For as long as human society has existed, advancements came from in-person connections which were fostered by these random unofficial chats. If you expect anything else, you might expect humans to not be like humans.

User23 4y ago

That's called office politics.

kelnos 4y ago

So we should require that everyone be in an office, so that people like you can get their career-defining opportunities? Maybe many of us would be fine making that trade-off: fewer opportunities for career-defining opportunities in exchange for the elimination of a commute, more-comfortable working arrangements, and a much more flexible work schedule. Not everything in life is about career advancement.

ornornor 4y ago
> Not everything in life is about career advancement. Well said :)
- bilvar 4y ago
  Yes, and when people going to the office get more opportunities, more advancement and higher compensation, he/she will be complaining for making "less money for the same work". Or they will start complaining about how unfair is that those opportunities only arise in the office and demand that there will be "procedures" for them to be available remotely.
  - ornornor 4y ago
    Not speaking for GP, but as far as I’m concerned I’m happy to stay far far far away from office politics games and getting paid less than those who do while having half or a quarter of their workloads.
    - bilvar 4y ago
      See reply to GP. I commend you too.
  - kelnos 4y ago
    Long ago I accepted that if I want better work-life balance and more flexible arrangements, there would be consequences. In my post above I explicitly called it out as a trade-off: I am totally fine with lower pay and fewer promotions if it means I get to live more of my life outside work. If you're not ok with that, that's your choice to make: find jobs that give you those opportunities, and tilt your work-life balance toward work. Hell, you should be happy that I have more flexibility in my working arrangements and can make this trade-off: less competition for you to get what you want.

ljf 4y ago

How much of your working life was in person vs remote? I agree most of my 'big breaks' were face to face, that was due to the point I was in my career at that time. I've still had some great progression during remote working times - sometimes you just need to make these things happen - contacting someone just for a chat if that is what you need, turning up to online meetings early to spend a little time chatting before the proper meeting, or asking specific people if they have time to stay on. I really think half the problem is that we aren't yet used to the new rules of engagement, and are still figuring out what feels right. But opportunity is still there.