5 ms·

I believe for every person out there like the parent poster there are people like you and I who can hold back that flow. It's incumbent upon us to not give our

I believe for every person out there like the parent poster there are people like you and I who can hold back that flow. It's incumbent upon us to not give our skills or our time to people who treat us like disposable resources. It's also incumbent upon people like us to build companies and hire people who share those values, and to treat them with dignity and respect.

junofan 4y ago
The people who think like that want RTO, which is part of what GP is saying. The disposable resource people champion remote work.
- 0xB31B1B 4y ago
  Exactly this, the two stable equilibria are “the company is the employees, we all work together in office” and “the company employs labor to solve our customers problems, and the company does this in the most cost effective way possible”.
- phil21 4y ago
  Yep. This. I can't believe HN zeitgeist cannot understand this. Why would I hire a US employee for twice the cost when I can hire someone 95% as good remotely in a low cost area of the world and actually get an employee that sticks around for a decade vs. a year? It's honestly not even really a decision at this point if you have the management infrastructure in place.
  - bsuvc 4y ago
    > when I can hire someone 95% as good remotely in a low cost area of the world and actually get an employee that sticks around for a decade vs. a year This is fantasy.
    - phil21 4y ago
      It's not. The fantasy is thinking anyone outside the US not taking down $300k/yr is untalented. It's not interesting to discuss outliers. Millions are being made playing this talent/wage arbitrage as we speak. The top 1% of engineers is not interesting to discuss, and certainly is not representative of the average FAANG employee (or salary). Edit: Direct personal experience during my entire working career. Are there bubbles of super-talent completely out of my reach for such a pleb? Absolutely. But those folks are not interesting to the vast majority of companies needing basic but competent IT talent. Many folks here seem to be under the impression they are in that pool. Time will tell.
    - 0xB31B1B 4y ago
      Unless you’re a front of the field AI researcher or have other extremely specific domain knowledge in high demand areas then this is reality, get accustomed to it.
    - onethought 4y ago
      Having done this for over ten years. It’s not. It’s actually way easier than people think.
      - bsuvc 4y ago
        Over 20 years of seeing this attempted by large companies and I have have never seen it work out well for them. I'm not saying there aren't some talented developers working for cheap, but most of the time you get what you pay for.
        onethought 4y ago
        Yes, so if you pay in the top 90% in a country you get top 90% of the talent. The problem with “off shoring” is that’s how it is treated. Remote work, where people become part of your team and work with everyone else is quite different and avoids the failure cases you have likely seen. It’s hardly controversial to say that a huge chunk of Silicon Valley talent is from migrants. So clearly the training overseas is up to scratch.
        phil21 4y ago
        > Remote work, where people become part of your team and work with everyone else is quite different and avoids the failure cases you have likely seen. Thank you. I believe this is the point everyone is missing. And this is new. Giant companies never did this sort of thing really. It was always the low effort outsourcing approaches I was seeing in these markets. Today I'm now competing with IBM and the ilk in these markets for direct employees. The tides are shifting extremely rapidly and I don't think many in the US even understand what has happened underneath them in the past few years.
    - bobolino123 4y ago
      Not at all. European lead engineer here with already high salary (USD 112k TC). I would even accept 90k if it is 100% remote and I can travel the world.
  - DenisM 4y ago
    Why would an offshore employee stick around any longer than a US one? They too would move as soon as they find a better offer.
    - bobolino123 4y ago
      Culture mostly

junofan 4y ago

The people who think like that want RTO, which is part of what GP is saying. The disposable resource people champion remote work.

0xB31B1B 4y ago
Exactly this, the two stable equilibria are “the company is the employees, we all work together in office” and “the company employs labor to solve our customers problems, and the company does this in the most cost effective way possible”.
phil21 4y ago
Yep. This. I can't believe HN zeitgeist cannot understand this. Why would I hire a US employee for twice the cost when I can hire someone 95% as good remotely in a low cost area of the world and actually get an employee that sticks around for a decade vs. a year? It's honestly not even really a decision at this point if you have the management infrastructure in place.
- bsuvc 4y ago
  > when I can hire someone 95% as good remotely in a low cost area of the world and actually get an employee that sticks around for a decade vs. a year This is fantasy.
  - phil21 4y ago
    It's not. The fantasy is thinking anyone outside the US not taking down $300k/yr is untalented. It's not interesting to discuss outliers. Millions are being made playing this talent/wage arbitrage as we speak. The top 1% of engineers is not interesting to discuss, and certainly is not representative of the average FAANG employee (or salary). Edit: Direct personal experience during my entire working career. Are there bubbles of super-talent completely out of my reach for such a pleb? Absolutely. But those folks are not interesting to the vast majority of companies needing basic but competent IT talent. Many folks here seem to be under the impression they are in that pool. Time will tell.
  - 0xB31B1B 4y ago
    Unless you’re a front of the field AI researcher or have other extremely specific domain knowledge in high demand areas then this is reality, get accustomed to it.
  - onethought 4y ago
    Having done this for over ten years. It’s not. It’s actually way easier than people think.
    - bsuvc 4y ago
      Over 20 years of seeing this attempted by large companies and I have have never seen it work out well for them. I'm not saying there aren't some talented developers working for cheap, but most of the time you get what you pay for.
      - onethought 4y ago
        Yes, so if you pay in the top 90% in a country you get top 90% of the talent. The problem with “off shoring” is that’s how it is treated. Remote work, where people become part of your team and work with everyone else is quite different and avoids the failure cases you have likely seen. It’s hardly controversial to say that a huge chunk of Silicon Valley talent is from migrants. So clearly the training overseas is up to scratch.
        phil21 4y ago
        > Remote work, where people become part of your team and work with everyone else is quite different and avoids the failure cases you have likely seen. Thank you. I believe this is the point everyone is missing. And this is new. Giant companies never did this sort of thing really. It was always the low effort outsourcing approaches I was seeing in these markets. Today I'm now competing with IBM and the ilk in these markets for direct employees. The tides are shifting extremely rapidly and I don't think many in the US even understand what has happened underneath them in the past few years.
  - bobolino123 4y ago
    Not at all. European lead engineer here with already high salary (USD 112k TC). I would even accept 90k if it is 100% remote and I can travel the world.
- DenisM 4y ago
  Why would an offshore employee stick around any longer than a US one? They too would move as soon as they find a better offer.
  - bobolino123 4y ago
    Culture mostly