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In digital, pollution happens during construction way more than usage. It still makes sense to use a decade-old computer. The second-hand market is filled with

by rakoo 4y ago

In digital, pollution happens during construction way more than usage. It still makes sense to use a decade-old computer. The second-hand market is filled with material that was built at same point; you having access to your nice second hand laptop is due to newer laptops being built all the time. It is still sending a signal upstream that such a computer can be sold. I do agree that buying second hand is much better than buying new, but not even buying is still better here

rrdharan 4y ago
> It still makes sense to use a decade-old computer. Economically the incentives are not aligned this way though, if you pay for grid power... you still have to pay for the electricity, and there's also the opportunity cost of that payment (e.g. you could spend the money you save on your electric bill on carbon credits or green charities or whatever).
- rakoo 4y ago
  It might make less economical sense, true, but if reducing pollution or environmental impact made economic sense we wouldn't even be talking about it. Economic sense is not always relevant. I might even argue that economic sense is at odds with environmental sense
horsawlarway 4y ago
> It still makes sense to use a decade-old computer. I don't really think it does, at least not some of them. A lot of those older machines are just running really, really high idle power draw. Ex: Pentium 4/5, Core 2 Duo, Athlon64, etc. Running from 40 to 100 watts idle. For comparison, a new RPI will go as low as ~1-3 watt idle, tops out at ~5-7 watts under full load, and will generally have better performance characteristics. I run a lot of old machines in my basement because it can make sense (I throw them in a k8s farm), but I also generally have them spend a week on an electricity meter first (honestly, just a function of the UPS I run down there) and anything drawing more than 20 watts idle gets sent to the recycling instead. The bad ones tend to run high + hot + loud, and they absolutely aren't worth it.
- pdimitar 4y ago
  Can you link to your UPS? I'm on the lookout for a good one that doesn't make a lot of noise and has a built-in watt-meter for each of its sockets.
  - horsawlarway 4y ago
    Sadly mine is not per-socket. I have an old APC that shows load in watts for the sockets under battery backup, and also load in watts for the entire load (it's split and offers overdraw protection to everything, but battery backup only to half the sockets on the back). Usually I just leave the new machine as the only thing idling on the sockets without battery backup and compare the two. I also have one of these (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08LD53F3P/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08LD53F3P/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b...) floating around, but you have to be careful with it since it's not a surge protector. That said, it's cheap and will monitor each socket individually.
- rakoo 4y ago
  Yep, I was talking about the environmental argument, where drawing 40W idle might not be that bad compared to what happened at construction. Especially when you can source electricity from low-impact sources.
- primis 4y ago
  A decade ago was 2013, the pentium 4 is at least 13 years old now, but entered production 23 years ago. There's still a lot of utility to be had from a 10 year old machine. My daily driver laptop os a lenovo t420 which came out in 2011. Sure it can't play games but it'll do fine with youtube, programming, etc. My server box is also a 2012 era machine, it's a 3770k build. It's perfectly fine for what I use it for. Yeah it takes a bit more power than a modern intel chip, but it sure beats the alternative of throwing it in a landfill to save a few watts at idle.
  - horsawlarway 4y ago
    If you have a need and you already own it - knock yourself out. But comparing spending 40 bucks on craigslist or ebay for an old pentium/core 2 duo, vs getting an rpi... You're probably better off with the Pi (assuming you can source it, which is not a given atm). I don't even buy most of mine used, I just get hand-me-downs from friends/family because they want to get rid of the machine and ask me to wipe the drive in exchange for the hardware, but even at an upfront cost of free, a machine using 100 watts over a year is 80 bucks in my region, and my power is right around the US average. Plus power in my region is tiered, so the first 650kwh per month are cheap, the next 350 are avg, and the rest are expensive. So adding machines at this point is actually closer to ~$130 a year at 100 watts idle (paying for t3 rates). Personally, it's just not worth it to me to take a freebie that runs me $100+ in costs a year. Not even accounting for the knock-on costs, like the extra AC needed because 100 watts is a small heater. ---- So sure - lots of older machines do just fine (the end of the core 2 duo line is quite reasonable, and most laptops are actually fine) but it's really probably worth measuring the power draw. The five year cost of operating that rpi is ~$30, the five year cost of operating a 100 watt machine are ~$450. And I can run a LOT more low power machines and stay in my t1/t2 pricing for power.
pdimitar 4y ago
I agree that extra pollution comes from manufacturing and said as much in my post already. But I believe the fact that this laptop can last at least 10 years + it will consume a single order of magnitude less power over these 10 years adds up to more environment care. The production is already completed. The damage has been done. Let's use the machines at least because they are 10x more efficient and we can slow down the environmental damage. Also to many of us outright not buying machines means we gotta switch industry. And a lot of us don't want to. > It is still sending a signal upstream that such a computer can be sold. That's a bit out there though; it only signals the vendor that people hold on to their older machines for longer time. If anything, the laptop I got second-hand is no longer even listed on the vendor's AliExpress store. It only has a marketing page on the website and you can only find it second-hand or here and there on the internet.
- rakoo 4y ago
  I think we need to take a step back and see the big picture. There are 10-year olds computers sitting unused; as a whole, it can fill a percentage of usages. If it does then the people using them don't need to buy another one, new or refurbished. If they don't need to buy, other people can't sell as easily. If they can't sell as easily, they might use it longer, and not need/want to buy another one, old or refurbished, etc... It's a whole market and if constructors see that the overall tendency is of using longer, they will get the signal that there can be less sales overall. And thus build less. Everything we do is part of a larger system, and I believe we should understand what the system is like and how it works if we want to have a real impact.
  - pdimitar 4y ago
    I believe many of us are aware of the bigger picture outlined by you, but you keep ignoring the point that the previous 10-year old computers burn much more electricity. And as I already said, the newer more efficient machines have been built already so we might as well use them and help the planet by using less watts. The process you describe is yet to happen e.g. the computers I have I don't want to replace unless they crash and burn. So in 5-ish years I believe vendors will slow down manufacturing indeed because many people do like I do: they get the newer more power-efficient stuff and then hold on to it for longer periods.
0xDEF 4y ago
Manufacturing pollution is a localized problem. Using energy inefficient machines lead to more energy consumption and CO2 emissions that are threatening global climate.

by rakoo 4y ago

rrdharan 4y ago

> It still makes sense to use a decade-old computer. Economically the incentives are not aligned this way though, if you pay for grid power... you still have to pay for the electricity, and there's also the opportunity cost of that payment (e.g. you could spend the money you save on your electric bill on carbon credits or green charities or whatever).

rakoo 4y ago
It might make less economical sense, true, but if reducing pollution or environmental impact made economic sense we wouldn't even be talking about it. Economic sense is not always relevant. I might even argue that economic sense is at odds with environmental sense

horsawlarway 4y ago

> It still makes sense to use a decade-old computer. I don't really think it does, at least not some of them. A lot of those older machines are just running really, really high idle power draw. Ex: Pentium 4/5, Core 2 Duo, Athlon64, etc. Running from 40 to 100 watts idle. For comparison, a new RPI will go as low as ~1-3 watt idle, tops out at ~5-7 watts under full load, and will generally have better performance characteristics. I run a lot of old machines in my basement because it can make sense (I throw them in a k8s farm), but I also generally have them spend a week on an electricity meter first (honestly, just a function of the UPS I run down there) and anything drawing more than 20 watts idle gets sent to the recycling instead. The bad ones tend to run high + hot + loud, and they absolutely aren't worth it.

pdimitar 4y ago
Can you link to your UPS? I'm on the lookout for a good one that doesn't make a lot of noise and has a built-in watt-meter for each of its sockets.
- horsawlarway 4y ago
  Sadly mine is not per-socket. I have an old APC that shows load in watts for the sockets under battery backup, and also load in watts for the entire load (it's split and offers overdraw protection to everything, but battery backup only to half the sockets on the back). Usually I just leave the new machine as the only thing idling on the sockets without battery backup and compare the two. I also have one of these (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08LD53F3P/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08LD53F3P/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b...) floating around, but you have to be careful with it since it's not a surge protector. That said, it's cheap and will monitor each socket individually.
rakoo 4y ago
Yep, I was talking about the environmental argument, where drawing 40W idle might not be that bad compared to what happened at construction. Especially when you can source electricity from low-impact sources.
primis 4y ago
A decade ago was 2013, the pentium 4 is at least 13 years old now, but entered production 23 years ago. There's still a lot of utility to be had from a 10 year old machine. My daily driver laptop os a lenovo t420 which came out in 2011. Sure it can't play games but it'll do fine with youtube, programming, etc. My server box is also a 2012 era machine, it's a 3770k build. It's perfectly fine for what I use it for. Yeah it takes a bit more power than a modern intel chip, but it sure beats the alternative of throwing it in a landfill to save a few watts at idle.
- horsawlarway 4y ago
  If you have a need and you already own it - knock yourself out. But comparing spending 40 bucks on craigslist or ebay for an old pentium/core 2 duo, vs getting an rpi... You're probably better off with the Pi (assuming you can source it, which is not a given atm). I don't even buy most of mine used, I just get hand-me-downs from friends/family because they want to get rid of the machine and ask me to wipe the drive in exchange for the hardware, but even at an upfront cost of free, a machine using 100 watts over a year is 80 bucks in my region, and my power is right around the US average. Plus power in my region is tiered, so the first 650kwh per month are cheap, the next 350 are avg, and the rest are expensive. So adding machines at this point is actually closer to ~$130 a year at 100 watts idle (paying for t3 rates). Personally, it's just not worth it to me to take a freebie that runs me $100+ in costs a year. Not even accounting for the knock-on costs, like the extra AC needed because 100 watts is a small heater. ---- So sure - lots of older machines do just fine (the end of the core 2 duo line is quite reasonable, and most laptops are actually fine) but it's really probably worth measuring the power draw. The five year cost of operating that rpi is ~$30, the five year cost of operating a 100 watt machine are ~$450. And I can run a LOT more low power machines and stay in my t1/t2 pricing for power.

pdimitar 4y ago

I agree that extra pollution comes from manufacturing and said as much in my post already. But I believe the fact that this laptop can last at least 10 years + it will consume a single order of magnitude less power over these 10 years adds up to more environment care. The production is already completed. The damage has been done. Let's use the machines at least because they are 10x more efficient and we can slow down the environmental damage. Also to many of us outright not buying machines means we gotta switch industry. And a lot of us don't want to. > It is still sending a signal upstream that such a computer can be sold. That's a bit out there though; it only signals the vendor that people hold on to their older machines for longer time. If anything, the laptop I got second-hand is no longer even listed on the vendor's AliExpress store. It only has a marketing page on the website and you can only find it second-hand or here and there on the internet.

rakoo 4y ago
I think we need to take a step back and see the big picture. There are 10-year olds computers sitting unused; as a whole, it can fill a percentage of usages. If it does then the people using them don't need to buy another one, new or refurbished. If they don't need to buy, other people can't sell as easily. If they can't sell as easily, they might use it longer, and not need/want to buy another one, old or refurbished, etc... It's a whole market and if constructors see that the overall tendency is of using longer, they will get the signal that there can be less sales overall. And thus build less. Everything we do is part of a larger system, and I believe we should understand what the system is like and how it works if we want to have a real impact.
- pdimitar 4y ago
  I believe many of us are aware of the bigger picture outlined by you, but you keep ignoring the point that the previous 10-year old computers burn much more electricity. And as I already said, the newer more efficient machines have been built already so we might as well use them and help the planet by using less watts. The process you describe is yet to happen e.g. the computers I have I don't want to replace unless they crash and burn. So in 5-ish years I believe vendors will slow down manufacturing indeed because many people do like I do: they get the newer more power-efficient stuff and then hold on to it for longer periods.

0xDEF 4y ago

Manufacturing pollution is a localized problem. Using energy inefficient machines lead to more energy consumption and CO2 emissions that are threatening global climate.