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Why would I invest the time, effort, and incalculable risk involved in adopting and depending on a boutique experimental keyboard system? Why do all keyboard p

Why would I invest the time, effort, and incalculable risk involved in adopting and depending on a boutique experimental keyboard system? Why do all keyboard projects either mindlessly adhere to antique conventions or hopelessly diverge into zaniness? Why is it so difficult to find a multi-platform split keyboard with no gimmicks, standard layouts, and sane defaults. I will buy a back-stock of 10 when I find it. The closest thing so far is the Mistel MD770 so I own 2 of them.

morjom 4y ago
Are moonlander and ergodox too zany or too out of the default? I used a MD600 for a while, and found that keyboards that are just qwerties chopped in half diagonally in the middle-ish aren't really taking advantage of the splitness enough, so ergodox or a dactyl seemed better for me.
- pletnes 4y ago
  My moonlander took a few days/weeks of getting used to, but it’s not very «far out» in my mind. The biggest hurdle is getting used to the ortholinear keys, but this quickly feels much better. Would warmly recommend to anyone spending much time in front of a keyboard, really.
  - zwayhowder 4y ago
    The biggest hurdle is wondering why your space bar is no longer working on a normal keyboard, and realising that you are actually smashing the alt key :D But seriously, I love my Moonlander(s) and have no regrets buying them.
    - mynameisvlad 4y ago
      > The biggest hurdle is wondering why your space bar is no longer working on a normal keyboard, and realising that you are actually smashing the alt key :D This hasn't really been an issue for me after the first week or two of use. My muscle memory adjusts based on which keyboard I'm using. Typing this on my MBP's laptop keyboard while I work using my Moonlander day-to-day. > But seriously, I love my Moonlander(s) and have no regrets buying them. Also got a second for the office because of how much I love it. Only minor regrets because spending over 1k on two keyboards (after caps, etc) is a tough pill to swallow.
      - zwayhowder 4y ago
        It is, but then I broke a finger and was able to remap both keyboards to compensate. That was pure magic.
        mynameisvlad 4y ago
        Agreed, I make small tweaks occasionally to improve some behavior and it gives me a good feeling deep down to know I can change what any key does at its most basic level. I don't even use layers too much but most of my keys will have both a tap and tap-hold option and it's crazy to think that I can choose to change it at any time without any issue, and having it carry over between computers since it's all in the keyboard itself. I still haven't figured out a good combination for an Esc/backtick key since I use both keys pretty commonly and there just isn't space for both.
  - birken 4y ago
    I got a Moonlander about 3 months ago, and it took me about a month of getting used to the key layout until I was typing at similar speed to a Macbook keyboard (which for me is fairly fast, about 120wpm). The hardest letters for me was shifting from my index finger to my ring finger for 'c', and shifting '.' from my other index finger to my other ring finger. I basically got used to never typing a key with my ring finger below the home row and with the ortholinear keys it was just no longer possible to type quickly while having my index finger handle everything. The keys also poke out quite a bit more than other keyboards so when you stretch to type a key with the "wrong" finger you are also much more likely to accidentally press another key. Getting used to spacebar, backspace and enter, all of which I shifted to thumb mappings, took only a few days. You hit those keys so often you learn the muscle memory very quickly. This to me is by far the best part of the moonlander, having 4 super-accessible thumb keys and 2 semi-accessible thumb keys that I can program is a massive, massive improvement over a standard keyboard. Your thumb is completely wasted in a normal layout. I still am far below my "normal" speed for programming, but that is because I'm trying to figure out the best custom mapping for (){}[]<>=+ and then train the muscle memory. Overall I'm very happy with the purchase, I feel like it is much more ergonomic and with another few months of service and perfecting my layout it will hopefully end up being much faster and more convenient than a normal keyboard layout as well.
- whitemary 4y ago
  In my experience, splitting the keyboard in half delivers 95+% of the ergonomic benefits with virtually zero tradeoffs beyond the couple of days it take to adjust to it. Could you elaborate on the benefits in taking more "advantage of the splitness"? Maybe I'm overlooking a big missed opportunity. For me, I at least need to transition from my laptop keyboards (linux/mac) to my split keyboards without distracting from the work at hand. More generally, I think professionals should never stray too far from industry standard tools. My main issue with ergodox is consumer lock-in. Dependence on custom keybindings is one thing, but dependence on custom physical keys is bad practice outside of special circumstances.
  - mynameisvlad 4y ago
    > More generally, I think professionals should never stray too far from industry standard tools. I have used a Moonlander for close to two years now. Other than the few days at the beginning before muscle memory developed, I have had no issues going from a Moonlander, to a standard mechanical, to laptop keyboards. It's not nearly as big of a problem as you're making it seem, coming from my own experience. And why can't someone choose to use a tool that helps them? What's so wrong with that? > My main issue with ergodox is consumer lock-in. Dependence on custom keybindings is one thing, but dependence on custom physical keys is bad practice outside of special circumstances. What even is this argument? Oryx is just a layer on top of QMK, an open source keyboard firmware. The keys are all standard row 3 keycaps, with the exception of the thumb cluster which are 1.5u and 2u keycaps. Sure, the thumb cluster is unique, but that can be said for dozens of different keyboards: A lot have macro keys, or twists and knobs to control things like volume. Arrow key designs are different from manufacturer to manufacturer. Hell, the entire layout is different based on which country you're in. Having a thumb cluster seems like an extremely minor lock-in considering muscle memory isn't limited to one layout at a time.
  - rgoulter 4y ago
    > In my experience, splitting the keyboard in half delivers 95+% of the ergonomic benefits with virtually zero tradeoffs beyond the couple of days it take to adjust to it. "standard layout, but split" doesn't quite do enough to fix a big deficiency of standard layouts: Disproportionate use of the pinky finger compared to the thumb. - The thumb is much stronger than the pinky fingers, but the pinky fingers get used for many more keys than the thumb. It's much more comfortable to be able to use the thumb for enter, backspace, tab, escape, than having to move the hand & use the pinky finger for these.
cinntaile 4y ago
https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/freestyle2-for-pc-us/ https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/freestyle2-for-pc-us/ What's wrong with this one? Pretty vanilla.
- whitemary 4y ago
  I tried it and had to return it. It's not multi-platform and the mac version is horribly designed so you have to sacrifice media keys to have function keys.
snozolli 4y ago
Why would I invest the time, effort, and incalculable risk What incalculable risk? You're just learning new muscle memory. Particularly if you're just talking about different key alignments (grid vs traditional typewriter staggered style). If you're talking about learning a new layout, like going from QWERTY to Dvorak or Colemak, that's a much bigger commitment, but still not a risk or something you can't simply change your mind about. I've gone from QWERTY to Dvorak and back, and from traditional to Kinesys and back. It's like learning to drive a stick shift, you can always give up or switch back and forth.
- whitemary 4y ago
  Consumer lock-in is a risk. For a professional practitioner, adopting dependence on custom hardware gadgets from boutique hobby ventures is a risk. Speaking for myself, I also depend on having a job where I have a boss. It's an authoritarian relationship. If my skills cannot be applied with required industry standard hardware, it's much harder for me to get/keep a job. For a professional employee, this counts as another risk. These risks are incalculable because the degree of dependence cannot be known until much later once all the quirks of the new system have been accounted for.
  - snozolli 4y ago
    Consumer lock-in is an incalculable risk. For a professional practitioner, adopting dependence on custom hardware gadgets from boutique hobby ventures is an incalculable risk. Just... Unplug the keyboard and go back to your old one! If my skills cannot be applied with required industry standard hardware The only time your boss cares what keyboard you're using is when you hand in a requisition form. Even then, they're likely to be happy to foot the bill to have a productive employee and potentially avoid a future disability claim. Again, you can just switch back to a regular keyboard. The human body is much smarter than you seem to think it is.
    - whitemary 4y ago
      The boss will care when you need a couple weeks to adapt your precious keyboard setup to the new company hardware, or when you can't work on the plane or at a coffee shop on work trips, or when you need to haul an armful of peripherals to the conference room for a standard meeting.
djbusby 4y ago
Did you see Keyboard.io one? It's a big butterfly shape, ortholinear(is that what it's called?) Took a while to get used to, 20+ years of muscle memory for pinky work that is now thumb. And I don't get lost going back to standard/laptops.
dschil138 4y ago
Hey, I made this. It was only ever intended just for me, bc I have bad (really bad) RSI. I truly did not ever expect anyone else to want to make one. But I shared it on the ergomech reddit and people were interested so I put some work into the Github repo. That being said, after realizing some people were actually interested, I also added a more standard 40-key version, bc I know most people don't want to go all the way to 20 keys. There is a pic of that version farther down on the README page.
- whitemary 4y ago
  I did not mean this as a criticism, but more as a cry for help! I have worsening RSI but a massively customized keyboard project would be so incompatible with my job requirements. I just wish so bad that there were a sane middle path.
  - dschil138 4y ago
    I totally get you. I think that exists tho! Someone else mentioned the Keyboardio100 which might work well for you. But I would also argue that it's totally worth learning a new layout. I think people overestimate how hard it is, and the difficulty of switching between them. If you have RSI, I would definitely recommend getting some type of split ergo board (maybe Corne?) and learning Colemak-DH layout.
  - worthless-trash 4y ago
    How would a keyboard layout be incompatible with your job requirements ?
    - worthless-trash 4y ago
      I ask as this might be a missed sales opportunity.
  - microtonal 4y ago
    Get a Kinesis Freestyle Edge RGB with palm rests and the tenting kit. Which is pretty much like any ergonomic keyboard, but split and tented. Or get a Dygma Raise if you want QWERTY row staggered, but thumb keys. Or get a Moonlander or Keyboardio Model 100 if you want row stagger. Or get a Kinesis Advantage2 if you want almost all possible ergonomic features (I had wrist pains and switching to a KA2 solved that completely). You can get some of there brands (in particular Kinesis) at regular ergo shops, so many employers will just see them as another expense besides a good chair or desk. (My employer bought me a Kinesis Advantage2 for the office-office.)
brekkiemax 4y ago
[flagged]
seltzered_ 4y ago
Ive been thinking about this quite a bit along with portability in mind. Its led me to sketch out this idea involving smaller 0.75u keys inspired by Atreus: https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/x6mbjh/seeking_design_feedback_atreusinspired_extended/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/x6mbjh/s... - while the layout is a bit more ortholinear in theory one shouldn't have to deal with layering. The bigger tradeoff is its handmade due to the modified keycaps. Plan to someday make it and share a setup on https://reddit.com/r/ergomobilecomputers https://reddit.com/r/ergomobilecomputers
dharmab 4y ago
I had to learn an ergonomic keyboard after a severe injury. It took one week to catch up to my QWERTY ability and two weeks to surpass it.
CarVac 4y ago
Layers have less "incalculable risk" when you design the layers yourself for your needs and according to your logic. Don't use layer setups other people designed verbatim; take inspiration from them. For example, my own ergo keyboard has no dedicated backspace button; instead I chose to have fn-M (a thumb function key) and it's actually better for me than reaching for a true backspace key. I would never expect anyone else to be able to use my keyboard though.
bee_rider 4y ago
The Kinesis Freestyle Pro is a pretty boring (in a good way) mechanical split keyboard. It has an (optional) tenting kit, which I guess could be seen as zany, but it really adds quite a bit of comfort.
- whitemary 4y ago
  I tried it. It's not multi-platform and the so-called mac version has no function key so you must pick between media keys and function keys. It also takes up a lot of unnecessary desk space and has a lot of bonus keys nobody asked for, but I would have still used them (one for win and another for mac) if I could adjust volume on the mac version without a 3rd party hack.
  - bee_rider 4y ago
    Yah, I’d probably be happier with a version that lacked all the extra keys on the left and right as well as useless stuff like the function and media keys, but I just ignore them.
  - microtonal 4y ago
    I think you are confusing the Pro with the Freestyle2. There is no separate Mac version of the Freestyle Pro (or Edge RGB) and it is fully programmable (and has a separate programmable function layer) and is a mechanical keyboard. The Freestyle2 is a completely different keyboard, has a Mac version, is not programmable and has rubber dome switches.
goosedragons 4y ago
There's loads of those? Kinesis Freestyle, Matias Ergo Pro, Mistel Barocco, Cloud Nine ErgoFS. You could also build one. A split keyboard only addresses one or two problems. The US QWERTY layout is objectively awful and there's loads of room for improvement. Even adding a single modifier key instead of the massively useless space bar is a huge improvement but people are married to the idea we must alternate thumbs to space because 60 years ago it actually took effort to do.
- whitemary 4y ago
  Kenesis Freestyle (tested) - NOT multi-platform, "Mac" version has no function key Matias Ergo Pro (not tested) - NOT multi-platform, A lot of non-standard key placement and spacing Mistel (tested) - Like I said, this is the best option Cloud Nine (tested) - NOT multi-platform, ridiculous footprint will hardly even fit on my desk WITHOUT a mouse, countless unnecessary features, I do have a friend who loves this keyboard but even they agree that they should have better options
  - goosedragons 4y ago
    Matias Ergo Pro absolutely is cross platform. There's a DIP switch under right CMD or alt and you can swap between Mac/PC. I've done this. I'm not even sure how beneficial "cross platform" is when you can just swap modifier controls on the Mac (the problem platform) anyways? Did you try the Kinesis Freestyle PRO? They advertise advertise Mac and Windows support while the NON-pro is Windows or Mac. The function key isn't a real key either. It's a key to do something on the keyboard itself. Plenty of Mac keyboards made by Apple even don't have one. Considering the "non-standard" key placements on these keybaords are about as big of a change as the average laptop and the Cloud Nine literally has a standard PC layout so I think you're just really picky. Maybe just build one?
- 2muchcoffeeman 4y ago
  The Matias has weird function keys on the left side and seems quite asymmetric. The Mistel is the best, off the shelf, not too expensive split keyboard. If money is no object, the UHK is what I would buy. The thumb clusters are optional and modular. I wish there was a more affordable split keyboard.
allendoerfer 4y ago
> Why do all keyboard projects either mindlessly adhere to antique conventions or hopelessly diverge into zaniness? Why is it so difficult to find a multi-platform split keyboard with no gimmicks, standard layouts, and sane defaults. I will buy a back-stock of 10 when I find it. The closest thing so far is the Mistel MD770 so I own 2 of them. Try finding what you are looking for but with an ISO layout. Which is why I am thinking about buying a second Mistel MD770.
Groxx 4y ago
Open source software, all hardware listed, and built by hand. I think the risk is extremely calculable. It's laid out explicitly.
keybored 4y ago
Is it really that binary? It seems that there are plenty of custom keyboards that are very vanilla, like 60%. Personally I think custom keyboard people are a bit too in love with 60% and below + a dozen F-combinations (for arrow keys and so on).
bschwindHN 4y ago
Make one yourself, it's not that hard.
bmitc 4y ago
I use Logitech's ergonomic keyboard and love it. Stays QWERTY so that I don't become dependent on some weird format but removes wrist and hand pain.
brokenmachine 4y ago
>Mistel MD770 Staggered keys and qwerty is the very definition of "mindlessly adhering to antique conventions" in my opinion.
microtonal 4y ago
The Mistel MD770 is quite unergonomic. It has positive tilt (bad for your wrists) and only very small amount of tenting. There many keyboards that are more ergonomic from companies that have been around a long time (e.g. Kinesis).

morjom 4y ago

Are moonlander and ergodox too zany or too out of the default? I used a MD600 for a while, and found that keyboards that are just qwerties chopped in half diagonally in the middle-ish aren't really taking advantage of the splitness enough, so ergodox or a dactyl seemed better for me.

pletnes 4y ago
My moonlander took a few days/weeks of getting used to, but it’s not very «far out» in my mind. The biggest hurdle is getting used to the ortholinear keys, but this quickly feels much better. Would warmly recommend to anyone spending much time in front of a keyboard, really.
- zwayhowder 4y ago
  The biggest hurdle is wondering why your space bar is no longer working on a normal keyboard, and realising that you are actually smashing the alt key :D But seriously, I love my Moonlander(s) and have no regrets buying them.
  - mynameisvlad 4y ago
    > The biggest hurdle is wondering why your space bar is no longer working on a normal keyboard, and realising that you are actually smashing the alt key :D This hasn't really been an issue for me after the first week or two of use. My muscle memory adjusts based on which keyboard I'm using. Typing this on my MBP's laptop keyboard while I work using my Moonlander day-to-day. > But seriously, I love my Moonlander(s) and have no regrets buying them. Also got a second for the office because of how much I love it. Only minor regrets because spending over 1k on two keyboards (after caps, etc) is a tough pill to swallow.
    - zwayhowder 4y ago
      It is, but then I broke a finger and was able to remap both keyboards to compensate. That was pure magic.
      - mynameisvlad 4y ago
        Agreed, I make small tweaks occasionally to improve some behavior and it gives me a good feeling deep down to know I can change what any key does at its most basic level. I don't even use layers too much but most of my keys will have both a tap and tap-hold option and it's crazy to think that I can choose to change it at any time without any issue, and having it carry over between computers since it's all in the keyboard itself. I still haven't figured out a good combination for an Esc/backtick key since I use both keys pretty commonly and there just isn't space for both.
- birken 4y ago
  I got a Moonlander about 3 months ago, and it took me about a month of getting used to the key layout until I was typing at similar speed to a Macbook keyboard (which for me is fairly fast, about 120wpm). The hardest letters for me was shifting from my index finger to my ring finger for 'c', and shifting '.' from my other index finger to my other ring finger. I basically got used to never typing a key with my ring finger below the home row and with the ortholinear keys it was just no longer possible to type quickly while having my index finger handle everything. The keys also poke out quite a bit more than other keyboards so when you stretch to type a key with the "wrong" finger you are also much more likely to accidentally press another key. Getting used to spacebar, backspace and enter, all of which I shifted to thumb mappings, took only a few days. You hit those keys so often you learn the muscle memory very quickly. This to me is by far the best part of the moonlander, having 4 super-accessible thumb keys and 2 semi-accessible thumb keys that I can program is a massive, massive improvement over a standard keyboard. Your thumb is completely wasted in a normal layout. I still am far below my "normal" speed for programming, but that is because I'm trying to figure out the best custom mapping for (){}[]<>=+ and then train the muscle memory. Overall I'm very happy with the purchase, I feel like it is much more ergonomic and with another few months of service and perfecting my layout it will hopefully end up being much faster and more convenient than a normal keyboard layout as well.
whitemary 4y ago
In my experience, splitting the keyboard in half delivers 95+% of the ergonomic benefits with virtually zero tradeoffs beyond the couple of days it take to adjust to it. Could you elaborate on the benefits in taking more "advantage of the splitness"? Maybe I'm overlooking a big missed opportunity. For me, I at least need to transition from my laptop keyboards (linux/mac) to my split keyboards without distracting from the work at hand. More generally, I think professionals should never stray too far from industry standard tools. My main issue with ergodox is consumer lock-in. Dependence on custom keybindings is one thing, but dependence on custom physical keys is bad practice outside of special circumstances.
- mynameisvlad 4y ago
  > More generally, I think professionals should never stray too far from industry standard tools. I have used a Moonlander for close to two years now. Other than the few days at the beginning before muscle memory developed, I have had no issues going from a Moonlander, to a standard mechanical, to laptop keyboards. It's not nearly as big of a problem as you're making it seem, coming from my own experience. And why can't someone choose to use a tool that helps them? What's so wrong with that? > My main issue with ergodox is consumer lock-in. Dependence on custom keybindings is one thing, but dependence on custom physical keys is bad practice outside of special circumstances. What even is this argument? Oryx is just a layer on top of QMK, an open source keyboard firmware. The keys are all standard row 3 keycaps, with the exception of the thumb cluster which are 1.5u and 2u keycaps. Sure, the thumb cluster is unique, but that can be said for dozens of different keyboards: A lot have macro keys, or twists and knobs to control things like volume. Arrow key designs are different from manufacturer to manufacturer. Hell, the entire layout is different based on which country you're in. Having a thumb cluster seems like an extremely minor lock-in considering muscle memory isn't limited to one layout at a time.
- rgoulter 4y ago
  > In my experience, splitting the keyboard in half delivers 95+% of the ergonomic benefits with virtually zero tradeoffs beyond the couple of days it take to adjust to it. "standard layout, but split" doesn't quite do enough to fix a big deficiency of standard layouts: Disproportionate use of the pinky finger compared to the thumb. - The thumb is much stronger than the pinky fingers, but the pinky fingers get used for many more keys than the thumb. It's much more comfortable to be able to use the thumb for enter, backspace, tab, escape, than having to move the hand & use the pinky finger for these.

cinntaile 4y ago

https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/freestyle2-for-pc-us/ https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/freestyle2-for-pc-us/ What's wrong with this one? Pretty vanilla.

whitemary 4y ago
I tried it and had to return it. It's not multi-platform and the mac version is horribly designed so you have to sacrifice media keys to have function keys.

snozolli 4y ago

Why would I invest the time, effort, and incalculable risk What incalculable risk? You're just learning new muscle memory. Particularly if you're just talking about different key alignments (grid vs traditional typewriter staggered style). If you're talking about learning a new layout, like going from QWERTY to Dvorak or Colemak, that's a much bigger commitment, but still not a risk or something you can't simply change your mind about. I've gone from QWERTY to Dvorak and back, and from traditional to Kinesys and back. It's like learning to drive a stick shift, you can always give up or switch back and forth.

whitemary 4y ago
Consumer lock-in is a risk. For a professional practitioner, adopting dependence on custom hardware gadgets from boutique hobby ventures is a risk. Speaking for myself, I also depend on having a job where I have a boss. It's an authoritarian relationship. If my skills cannot be applied with required industry standard hardware, it's much harder for me to get/keep a job. For a professional employee, this counts as another risk. These risks are incalculable because the degree of dependence cannot be known until much later once all the quirks of the new system have been accounted for.
- snozolli 4y ago
  Consumer lock-in is an incalculable risk. For a professional practitioner, adopting dependence on custom hardware gadgets from boutique hobby ventures is an incalculable risk. Just... Unplug the keyboard and go back to your old one! If my skills cannot be applied with required industry standard hardware The only time your boss cares what keyboard you're using is when you hand in a requisition form. Even then, they're likely to be happy to foot the bill to have a productive employee and potentially avoid a future disability claim. Again, you can just switch back to a regular keyboard. The human body is much smarter than you seem to think it is.
  - whitemary 4y ago
    The boss will care when you need a couple weeks to adapt your precious keyboard setup to the new company hardware, or when you can't work on the plane or at a coffee shop on work trips, or when you need to haul an armful of peripherals to the conference room for a standard meeting.

djbusby 4y ago

Did you see Keyboard.io one? It's a big butterfly shape, ortholinear(is that what it's called?) Took a while to get used to, 20+ years of muscle memory for pinky work that is now thumb. And I don't get lost going back to standard/laptops.

dschil138 4y ago

Hey, I made this. It was only ever intended just for me, bc I have bad (really bad) RSI. I truly did not ever expect anyone else to want to make one. But I shared it on the ergomech reddit and people were interested so I put some work into the Github repo. That being said, after realizing some people were actually interested, I also added a more standard 40-key version, bc I know most people don't want to go all the way to 20 keys. There is a pic of that version farther down on the README page.

whitemary 4y ago
I did not mean this as a criticism, but more as a cry for help! I have worsening RSI but a massively customized keyboard project would be so incompatible with my job requirements. I just wish so bad that there were a sane middle path.
- dschil138 4y ago
  I totally get you. I think that exists tho! Someone else mentioned the Keyboardio100 which might work well for you. But I would also argue that it's totally worth learning a new layout. I think people overestimate how hard it is, and the difficulty of switching between them. If you have RSI, I would definitely recommend getting some type of split ergo board (maybe Corne?) and learning Colemak-DH layout.
- worthless-trash 4y ago
  How would a keyboard layout be incompatible with your job requirements ?
  - worthless-trash 4y ago
    I ask as this might be a missed sales opportunity.
- microtonal 4y ago
  Get a Kinesis Freestyle Edge RGB with palm rests and the tenting kit. Which is pretty much like any ergonomic keyboard, but split and tented. Or get a Dygma Raise if you want QWERTY row staggered, but thumb keys. Or get a Moonlander or Keyboardio Model 100 if you want row stagger. Or get a Kinesis Advantage2 if you want almost all possible ergonomic features (I had wrist pains and switching to a KA2 solved that completely). You can get some of there brands (in particular Kinesis) at regular ergo shops, so many employers will just see them as another expense besides a good chair or desk. (My employer bought me a Kinesis Advantage2 for the office-office.)

brekkiemax 4y ago

[flagged]

seltzered_ 4y ago

Ive been thinking about this quite a bit along with portability in mind. Its led me to sketch out this idea involving smaller 0.75u keys inspired by Atreus: https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/x6mbjh/seeking_design_feedback_atreusinspired_extended/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/x6mbjh/s... - while the layout is a bit more ortholinear in theory one shouldn't have to deal with layering. The bigger tradeoff is its handmade due to the modified keycaps. Plan to someday make it and share a setup on https://reddit.com/r/ergomobilecomputers https://reddit.com/r/ergomobilecomputers

dharmab 4y ago

I had to learn an ergonomic keyboard after a severe injury. It took one week to catch up to my QWERTY ability and two weeks to surpass it.

CarVac 4y ago

Layers have less "incalculable risk" when you design the layers yourself for your needs and according to your logic. Don't use layer setups other people designed verbatim; take inspiration from them. For example, my own ergo keyboard has no dedicated backspace button; instead I chose to have fn-M (a thumb function key) and it's actually better for me than reaching for a true backspace key. I would never expect anyone else to be able to use my keyboard though.

bee_rider 4y ago

The Kinesis Freestyle Pro is a pretty boring (in a good way) mechanical split keyboard. It has an (optional) tenting kit, which I guess could be seen as zany, but it really adds quite a bit of comfort.

whitemary 4y ago
I tried it. It's not multi-platform and the so-called mac version has no function key so you must pick between media keys and function keys. It also takes up a lot of unnecessary desk space and has a lot of bonus keys nobody asked for, but I would have still used them (one for win and another for mac) if I could adjust volume on the mac version without a 3rd party hack.
- bee_rider 4y ago
  Yah, I’d probably be happier with a version that lacked all the extra keys on the left and right as well as useless stuff like the function and media keys, but I just ignore them.
- microtonal 4y ago
  I think you are confusing the Pro with the Freestyle2. There is no separate Mac version of the Freestyle Pro (or Edge RGB) and it is fully programmable (and has a separate programmable function layer) and is a mechanical keyboard. The Freestyle2 is a completely different keyboard, has a Mac version, is not programmable and has rubber dome switches.

goosedragons 4y ago

There's loads of those? Kinesis Freestyle, Matias Ergo Pro, Mistel Barocco, Cloud Nine ErgoFS. You could also build one. A split keyboard only addresses one or two problems. The US QWERTY layout is objectively awful and there's loads of room for improvement. Even adding a single modifier key instead of the massively useless space bar is a huge improvement but people are married to the idea we must alternate thumbs to space because 60 years ago it actually took effort to do.

whitemary 4y ago
Kenesis Freestyle (tested) - NOT multi-platform, "Mac" version has no function key Matias Ergo Pro (not tested) - NOT multi-platform, A lot of non-standard key placement and spacing Mistel (tested) - Like I said, this is the best option Cloud Nine (tested) - NOT multi-platform, ridiculous footprint will hardly even fit on my desk WITHOUT a mouse, countless unnecessary features, I do have a friend who loves this keyboard but even they agree that they should have better options
- goosedragons 4y ago
  Matias Ergo Pro absolutely is cross platform. There's a DIP switch under right CMD or alt and you can swap between Mac/PC. I've done this. I'm not even sure how beneficial "cross platform" is when you can just swap modifier controls on the Mac (the problem platform) anyways? Did you try the Kinesis Freestyle PRO? They advertise advertise Mac and Windows support while the NON-pro is Windows or Mac. The function key isn't a real key either. It's a key to do something on the keyboard itself. Plenty of Mac keyboards made by Apple even don't have one. Considering the "non-standard" key placements on these keybaords are about as big of a change as the average laptop and the Cloud Nine literally has a standard PC layout so I think you're just really picky. Maybe just build one?
2muchcoffeeman 4y ago
The Matias has weird function keys on the left side and seems quite asymmetric. The Mistel is the best, off the shelf, not too expensive split keyboard. If money is no object, the UHK is what I would buy. The thumb clusters are optional and modular. I wish there was a more affordable split keyboard.

allendoerfer 4y ago

> Why do all keyboard projects either mindlessly adhere to antique conventions or hopelessly diverge into zaniness? Why is it so difficult to find a multi-platform split keyboard with no gimmicks, standard layouts, and sane defaults. I will buy a back-stock of 10 when I find it. The closest thing so far is the Mistel MD770 so I own 2 of them. Try finding what you are looking for but with an ISO layout. Which is why I am thinking about buying a second Mistel MD770.

Groxx 4y ago

Open source software, all hardware listed, and built by hand. I think the risk is extremely calculable. It's laid out explicitly.

keybored 4y ago

Is it really that binary? It seems that there are plenty of custom keyboards that are very vanilla, like 60%. Personally I think custom keyboard people are a bit too in love with 60% and below + a dozen F-combinations (for arrow keys and so on).

bschwindHN 4y ago

Make one yourself, it's not that hard.

bmitc 4y ago

I use Logitech's ergonomic keyboard and love it. Stays QWERTY so that I don't become dependent on some weird format but removes wrist and hand pain.

brokenmachine 4y ago

>Mistel MD770 Staggered keys and qwerty is the very definition of "mindlessly adhering to antique conventions" in my opinion.

microtonal 4y ago

The Mistel MD770 is quite unergonomic. It has positive tilt (bad for your wrists) and only very small amount of tenting. There many keyboards that are more ergonomic from companies that have been around a long time (e.g. Kinesis).