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>> I have yet to see a repeatable process for knowing if based on a specific situation if you’re currently under or over a true minimal viable X Isn't the answ

>> I have yet to see a repeatable process for knowing if based on a specific situation if you’re currently under or over a true minimal viable X Isn't the answer that shipping the thing is the only test? By shipping you figure out what's missing.

enos_feedler 4y ago
No. What you are describing is market research and it could be done a lot cheaper by not actually developing and shipping real software. Steve Jobs has a lot to say about what market research can tell you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2U3w5Blv0Lg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2U3w5Blv0Lg Your starting point actually matters quite a bit. Iterating to success through market research would be nearly impossible if you chose a bad starting point. Unless of course you go back to the drawing board each iteration. But in this case you aren't really testing and iterating, but trying out whole new things each round. I believe that if you are iterating in this way, then you truly don't have "it". You don't have whatever unique experience, product vision, perspective, etc is required to make the new thing that is going to disrupt the market you are trying to enter. You can't just keep trying things and get lucky in this way. At least not where we are in the cycle right now with software.
- O__________O 4y ago
  Another common way of criticizing the approach you’re referring to is commonly referred to as — “Build it and they will come” - which more often than not is done in a way that’s completely disconnected from reality.
  - enos_feedler 4y ago
    I think "build it and they will come" has most of it's criticism focused on a lack of plan for doing more than making something. It is certainly okay to believe that you have a v0 for something brand new that once people lay eyes on it, they just need to have it. But that doesn't mean just building it is 99% of the work. It's more like 50%. And yes, more often than not the v0 does not work out this way. But this is the nature of doing bold things. They mostly fail. I think the startup ecosystem has sent the wrong message by saying it doesn't matter what v0 is, just keep improving it and you'll win. In the musician world, "build it and they will come" would refer to creating a really great band by practicing in your parents basement, but never playing shows in the real world. You aren't going to grow a fanbase by playing in the basement. But you could be a damn fucking good band playing music that everyone needs to hear. There is a lot of work that takes you out of the basement. 50%. But if the first 50% isn't there no amount of leaving the basement is going land you anywhere.
    - O__________O 4y ago
      Lack of planning has nothing to do with “build it and they will come” — and everything to do with communicating with the customer to understand what would make them come and why. Beyond that, this is not about getting a percentage done, but 100% of the least viable amount of “done” complete that would result in a predefined behavior; spend money, use product everyday, etc. Musician equivalent might be identifying few notable bands in a given genre and actually understanding which fans spend money, why, where they listen to it, what other music they listen to, how they discover new music, what songs they share with people, etc; never done music R&D, so honestly stretch, in part because I know distribution is way more important than the actual music, but that doesn’t change that ultimately it’s the fans listening to music that matter. The “build it and they will come” would be making full album with music videos before ever letting single fan or peer familiar with fan tastes listen to the music.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - enos_feedler 4y ago
        communicating with the customer = marketing = a task beyond making the thing = my point.
        O__________O 4y ago
        No. It’s called customer development, product development, design thinking, human centered design, etc — and has nothing to do with marketing, which is something you do after you have a defined product or service. Sales has more in common with it than marketing.
        enos_feedler 4y ago
        Customer development, product development, design thinking, human centered design -- those all sound like made up activities you tell your VCs you are doing because you don't have product market fit with v0. Build a new v0 or go home.
O__________O 4y ago
Simple answer is no, there is no answer, it’s never ending optimization problem that free ends way before product market fit is found and even if market market fit is found, it’s matter time before market shifts. Another way of imagining it is if you look back in time, where hindsight is 20/20, assuming that as an observer you were aware of all factors. Magically you have a “Time Machine” and travel back time knowing the prefect way to do everything. Problem is the dynamics of the situation would evolve rapidly evolve and it would likely never stop evolving no matter how many times you completed the loop.

enos_feedler 4y ago

No. What you are describing is market research and it could be done a lot cheaper by not actually developing and shipping real software. Steve Jobs has a lot to say about what market research can tell you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2U3w5Blv0Lg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2U3w5Blv0Lg Your starting point actually matters quite a bit. Iterating to success through market research would be nearly impossible if you chose a bad starting point. Unless of course you go back to the drawing board each iteration. But in this case you aren't really testing and iterating, but trying out whole new things each round. I believe that if you are iterating in this way, then you truly don't have "it". You don't have whatever unique experience, product vision, perspective, etc is required to make the new thing that is going to disrupt the market you are trying to enter. You can't just keep trying things and get lucky in this way. At least not where we are in the cycle right now with software.

O__________O 4y ago
Another common way of criticizing the approach you’re referring to is commonly referred to as — “Build it and they will come” - which more often than not is done in a way that’s completely disconnected from reality.
- enos_feedler 4y ago
  I think "build it and they will come" has most of it's criticism focused on a lack of plan for doing more than making something. It is certainly okay to believe that you have a v0 for something brand new that once people lay eyes on it, they just need to have it. But that doesn't mean just building it is 99% of the work. It's more like 50%. And yes, more often than not the v0 does not work out this way. But this is the nature of doing bold things. They mostly fail. I think the startup ecosystem has sent the wrong message by saying it doesn't matter what v0 is, just keep improving it and you'll win. In the musician world, "build it and they will come" would refer to creating a really great band by practicing in your parents basement, but never playing shows in the real world. You aren't going to grow a fanbase by playing in the basement. But you could be a damn fucking good band playing music that everyone needs to hear. There is a lot of work that takes you out of the basement. 50%. But if the first 50% isn't there no amount of leaving the basement is going land you anywhere.
  - O__________O 4y ago
    Lack of planning has nothing to do with “build it and they will come” — and everything to do with communicating with the customer to understand what would make them come and why. Beyond that, this is not about getting a percentage done, but 100% of the least viable amount of “done” complete that would result in a predefined behavior; spend money, use product everyday, etc. Musician equivalent might be identifying few notable bands in a given genre and actually understanding which fans spend money, why, where they listen to it, what other music they listen to, how they discover new music, what songs they share with people, etc; never done music R&D, so honestly stretch, in part because I know distribution is way more important than the actual music, but that doesn’t change that ultimately it’s the fans listening to music that matter. The “build it and they will come” would be making full album with music videos before ever letting single fan or peer familiar with fan tastes listen to the music.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - enos_feedler 4y ago
      communicating with the customer = marketing = a task beyond making the thing = my point.
      - O__________O 4y ago
        No. It’s called customer development, product development, design thinking, human centered design, etc — and has nothing to do with marketing, which is something you do after you have a defined product or service. Sales has more in common with it than marketing.
        enos_feedler 4y ago
        Customer development, product development, design thinking, human centered design -- those all sound like made up activities you tell your VCs you are doing because you don't have product market fit with v0. Build a new v0 or go home.

O__________O 4y ago

Simple answer is no, there is no answer, it’s never ending optimization problem that free ends way before product market fit is found and even if market market fit is found, it’s matter time before market shifts. Another way of imagining it is if you look back in time, where hindsight is 20/20, assuming that as an observer you were aware of all factors. Magically you have a “Time Machine” and travel back time knowing the prefect way to do everything. Problem is the dynamics of the situation would evolve rapidly evolve and it would likely never stop evolving no matter how many times you completed the loop.