4 ms·

I work with the exact same setup and demographics across the globe, from Eastern Europe to China to India to Japan to the US to South America. These aren't US

by csydas 4y ago

I work with the exact same setup and demographics across the globe, from Eastern Europe to China to India to Japan to the US to South America. These aren't US specific Gen-Z rules, these are quite global. This is happening far outside the scope you're limiting it to, and it matters.

flumpcakes 4y ago
I'm not sure what you are saying here, do people at your work write/communicate like Gen-Zers? Does Amber in HR get offended at your sharpness if you finish your sentence with a full stop? > These aren't US specific Gen-Z rules, these are quite global. These rules are specifically about English, and a younger generation. It's not as global as you think.
peoplefromibiza 4y ago
> This is happening far outside the scope you're limiting it to, and it matters Do you mean that you usually interact at work with people than cannot properly capitalize sentences, like we learned to do in primary school in practically any language that uses the Latin alphabet? I capitalize English because capitalization in my language (and any other language I can write) follows the same exact rules. It is a rule, it doesn't take much, capitalizing sentences at best proves that people know the basic grammar rules of the language and know when and how to use them, nothing more. Not doing it proves that people either don't care or don't know the basic rules of the language, which says a lot more than doing it properly.
- jklm 4y ago
  I think you hit the nail on the head - at a certain point caring about every single rule isn’t effective or is actually net less effective. On HN I’ll use correct punctuation, grammar, and a wider set of vocabulary because there’s a good chance my message will come across more clearly. For general emails, I’ll write with simpler language because it’s very much a get-in-get-out activity especially with more senior stakeholders. For work comms, what’s the value in typing HN-style? Everyone already knows everyone else is smart. I believe communicating tone is more valuable than perfect punctuation and grammar, which make it much harder to get that across. Or as my grandma used to say - you don’t treat people you want to be treated, you treat them the way they want to be treated.
  - peoplefromibiza 4y ago
    > at a certain point caring about every single rule isn’t effective or is actually net less effective My point is the exact opposite though: I've been writing like this for all of my life, for at least 40 years, to write like I don't care I need to actually think about it and put a lot more effort into it, because it feels unnatural, looks wrong and makes me immediately doubt of the quality of the content I produced. Especially at work, where when I write something, it is for other people to read, sometimes many. But I also capitalize my personal notes. So, to me, your explanation of why you don't do it sounds like "look at me, I don't follow rules because we are all smart here, right guys? ... right?". Don't want to be offensive, but correct grammar should be muscle memory by now. Relying on muscle memory is good because it works on autopilot and let you focus on what's important.
    - jklm 4y ago
      That's fair, but your writing style mostly optimizes for you, your comfort, and your speed. And I say that as someone who started memorizing SAT words at the age of 8 - most people actually prefer to read a high school level (myself included in work contexts). I didn't learn this lesson the hard way until I was past my mid-20s. When you write something for others, it's far better to optimize for them rather than for yourself. Let's say you spend twice as much time writing something in an 'odd' way, but it gets your 50% more reach or alignment or funding. That's probably actually a great use of your time. > So, to me, your explanation of why you don't do it sounds like "look at me, I don't follow rules because we are all smart here, right guys? ... right?". It's not about being contrarian, it's about the tradeoff. Tone is incredibly important in most situations. When you write with perfect grammar and punctuation, most people don't know how to read into the nuance. Happy? Joyful? Pleased? Content? There's very little, if any, common understanding of the intensity or undertone in those adjectives. Imagine you're working with a new PM and he tells you the team's progress is 'acceptable.' What does that mean exactly? Is he happy with it? Is he mildly annoyed? Does he feel like things are off track and actually wants to talk more? So how do we build this common understanding? It turns out most people have actually already built up a language with their friends! Through texts/DMs/etc. So when that language is ported over to a work context, most people immediately grasp it. You can conform to the world or the world can conform to you. <-- A sentence where tone would be helpful.
mlindner 4y ago
> These aren't US specific Gen-Z rules, these are quite global. This is happening far outside the scope you're limiting it to, and it matters. Given that almost all of these are English-specific or at least european language specific, no that is completely false.
mmis1000 4y ago
As someone who speak chinese. I can confirm this. If your boss or parent ever send message to you with your full name and properly closed sentence. You are running into something serious. It's not a English only rule.

by csydas 4y ago

flumpcakes 4y ago

I'm not sure what you are saying here, do people at your work write/communicate like Gen-Zers? Does Amber in HR get offended at your sharpness if you finish your sentence with a full stop? > These aren't US specific Gen-Z rules, these are quite global. These rules are specifically about English, and a younger generation. It's not as global as you think.

peoplefromibiza 4y ago

> This is happening far outside the scope you're limiting it to, and it matters Do you mean that you usually interact at work with people than cannot properly capitalize sentences, like we learned to do in primary school in practically any language that uses the Latin alphabet? I capitalize English because capitalization in my language (and any other language I can write) follows the same exact rules. It is a rule, it doesn't take much, capitalizing sentences at best proves that people know the basic grammar rules of the language and know when and how to use them, nothing more. Not doing it proves that people either don't care or don't know the basic rules of the language, which says a lot more than doing it properly.

jklm 4y ago
I think you hit the nail on the head - at a certain point caring about every single rule isn’t effective or is actually net less effective. On HN I’ll use correct punctuation, grammar, and a wider set of vocabulary because there’s a good chance my message will come across more clearly. For general emails, I’ll write with simpler language because it’s very much a get-in-get-out activity especially with more senior stakeholders. For work comms, what’s the value in typing HN-style? Everyone already knows everyone else is smart. I believe communicating tone is more valuable than perfect punctuation and grammar, which make it much harder to get that across. Or as my grandma used to say - you don’t treat people you want to be treated, you treat them the way they want to be treated.
- peoplefromibiza 4y ago
  > at a certain point caring about every single rule isn’t effective or is actually net less effective My point is the exact opposite though: I've been writing like this for all of my life, for at least 40 years, to write like I don't care I need to actually think about it and put a lot more effort into it, because it feels unnatural, looks wrong and makes me immediately doubt of the quality of the content I produced. Especially at work, where when I write something, it is for other people to read, sometimes many. But I also capitalize my personal notes. So, to me, your explanation of why you don't do it sounds like "look at me, I don't follow rules because we are all smart here, right guys? ... right?". Don't want to be offensive, but correct grammar should be muscle memory by now. Relying on muscle memory is good because it works on autopilot and let you focus on what's important.
  - jklm 4y ago
    That's fair, but your writing style mostly optimizes for you, your comfort, and your speed. And I say that as someone who started memorizing SAT words at the age of 8 - most people actually prefer to read a high school level (myself included in work contexts). I didn't learn this lesson the hard way until I was past my mid-20s. When you write something for others, it's far better to optimize for them rather than for yourself. Let's say you spend twice as much time writing something in an 'odd' way, but it gets your 50% more reach or alignment or funding. That's probably actually a great use of your time. > So, to me, your explanation of why you don't do it sounds like "look at me, I don't follow rules because we are all smart here, right guys? ... right?". It's not about being contrarian, it's about the tradeoff. Tone is incredibly important in most situations. When you write with perfect grammar and punctuation, most people don't know how to read into the nuance. Happy? Joyful? Pleased? Content? There's very little, if any, common understanding of the intensity or undertone in those adjectives. Imagine you're working with a new PM and he tells you the team's progress is 'acceptable.' What does that mean exactly? Is he happy with it? Is he mildly annoyed? Does he feel like things are off track and actually wants to talk more? So how do we build this common understanding? It turns out most people have actually already built up a language with their friends! Through texts/DMs/etc. So when that language is ported over to a work context, most people immediately grasp it. You can conform to the world or the world can conform to you. <-- A sentence where tone would be helpful.

mlindner 4y ago

> These aren't US specific Gen-Z rules, these are quite global. This is happening far outside the scope you're limiting it to, and it matters. Given that almost all of these are English-specific or at least european language specific, no that is completely false.

mmis1000 4y ago

As someone who speak chinese. I can confirm this. If your boss or parent ever send message to you with your full name and properly closed sentence. You are running into something serious. It's not a English only rule.